Run Your Life Show With Andy Vasily
Run Your Life Show With Andy Vasily
#216- Leading and Learning Through the Lens of Inquiry with Kath Murdoch
My guest today is Kath Murdoch. In today's show, we’ll explore leading and learning through the lens of inquiry and how taking on an inquiry stance, both internally and externally, can greatly shape what we learn about ourselves, others, and the world around us
From the TED X stage to countless conferences, to lecture halls and schools around the globe, Kath has had a huge impact on the field of teaching and learning. She’s written 15 books and numerous articles for teachers – including her best-seller ‘The Power of Inquiry’ (2015) and two of her latest books Getting Personal With Inquiry Learning and The Wonder of Winsome.
If you haven’t seen her TED X talk, you should check it out, because it was in this talk that she had the chance to speak so eloquently about The Power of Umm and share how silence allows young people to pick up lose threads of knowledge and reflection that open their minds to the most beautiful moments of curiosity that come alive through the questions that they come up with. Kath emphasizes that it’s not the answers that enlighten but rather powerful questions instead which are responsible for sparking deep learning in young people.
So in today’s episode, Kath and I are going to pull back the curtain on how she has continued to evolve her own learning related to the work she does inspiring teachers and students around the world to do their best work possible. As well, how curiosity, genuine reflection and asking the right questions all play a critical role in helping leaders be the best they can be for the organizations they lead. What was revealed to me through this discussion today was the impact that taking on an inquiry stance has on helping to build such a strong culture of genuine learning across the board in educational organizations. Hope you enjoy this discussion and share it with anyone who you feel will benefit from listening.
Connect With Kath:
Website: https://www.kathmurdoch.com.au/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/kjinquiry
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kjinquiry/
Credits for this Podcast Go To:
Kath Murdoch and Her TED X Talk: The Power of Umm
Sir Ken Robinson and His Talk on How Schools Killed Creativity
Run Your Life Podcast With Andy Vasily
Check out my podcast with the amazing Cal Fussman which was mentioned in this episode.
Whenever I am asked to talk about leadership in relation to my work, I tend to do so fairly obviously through the lens of inquiry. So I think first and foremost, what leaders need to do and be to do this work well and take schooling into the future is they need to be inquirers.
SPEAKER_06:Hi everybody, I'm Andy Vasley, and today on the show we'll explore leading and learning through the lens of inquiry and how taking on an inquiry stance, both internally and externally, can greatly shape what we learn about ourselves, others, and the world around us.
SPEAKER_01:You're listening to the Run Your Life podcast with Hope Andy Basley.
SPEAKER_06:So some of you listening to this probably already know my guest's work or have even had the chance to meet her in person or attend her workshops or even hear her speak. If you are unfamiliar with my guest today, here is Kath Murdoch introducing herself to us.
SPEAKER_02:I've researched and written and worked with teachers and children in that field. My interest is primarily in the primary years, so from sort of three, four-year-olds right through to 12-year-olds, I was a primary teacher originally and actually still consider myself to be one. In my heart, that's where I feel most at home. So I spend a lot of time in schools all around the world. I'm based in Australia. I'm currently in the UK. Um, part of a long trip working with different schools. So that's who I am and what I do.
unknown:Thanks, Andy. It's great to be on you here.
SPEAKER_06:Over the years, I've had the good fortune to have a number of conversations with Kath. This is actually the fourth time that Kath has appeared on my podcast.
SPEAKER_03:So I'm Kath Murdoch and I am mainly consult, but I still think of myself as a teacher. I do a lot of work in schools at the moment, almost all work in schools in Australia.
SPEAKER_06:And in our previous discussions, Kath has shared deep insight into her life in education, from her early days as a student herself, and how curiosity and wonder had always been a part of her own journey of learning, and how these experiences led her into the education profession and ultimately propel her on to the work she has done over the past three decades as a leading consultant worldwide, training teachers and educational leaders to empower the voices of the students they serve. From the TED stage to countless conferences, to lecture halls and schools around the globe, Kath has had a huge impact on the field of teaching and learning, and my own teaching in particular. She's written 15 books and numerous articles for teachers, including her bestseller, The Power of Inquiry in 2015, and two of her latest books, Getting Personal with Inquiry Learning and The Wonder of Winsome. If you haven't seen her TEDx talk, you should really check it out because it was in this talk that she had the chance to speak so eloquently about the power of um and share how silence allows young people to pick up loose threads of knowledge and reflection that ultimately open their minds to the most beautiful moments of curiosity that come alive through the questions that they come up with. Kath emphasizes that it's not the answers that enlighten, but rather powerful questions instead, which are responsible for sparking deep learning in young people. Here is Kath on the Ted Stage in West Vancouver sharing this exact theme to the audience that day back in 2017.
SPEAKER_03:UNESCO famously said that it's not the answer that enlightens, it's the question. And I couldn't agree more. A question can be such a thing of beauty. It leaves us open, vulnerable, and on the precipice of learning something new, but something that we have invited in. The wonder bubble that is my car has kind of transformed into more of a confessional now that my children are teenagers. But it's never lost that beautiful atmosphere of reflection. Alain de Baton describes, in fact, journeys as the midwives of thought. And for us, many of our journeys have been just that. They've given birth to some of the best questions, to some of our best thinking, and some of our most prejudiced silences. I'm a parent. But as I said, I'm also an educator. And for much of my professional life, I've been fortunate to work with children and teachers all over the world. So when I'm not in one of these, or one of these, you can usually find me in one of these. The classroom. Now, the classroom, in many ways, is the antithesis of that wonder bubble that I've described as my car on a long journey, or a tree house, or the front porch, or the bath, or anywhere where we are still enough to be reflective and to allow those big thoughts and speculations to occur in our minds. Classrooms are busy, often noisy, or strangely too quiet places. And whether they are the kind of sterile environment that I grew up in or the colourful chop full of dingle-dangle classrooms that I created when I first started teaching, but lots of the style, they can still be rather alienating or disconnecting places for children. I think classrooms can be very poor habitats for wonder. It can be very difficult to find light. Maybe could be.
SPEAKER_06:So in our conversation today, Kath and I are going to pull back the curtain on how she has continued to evolve her own learning related to the work she does, inspiring teachers and students around the world to do their best work possible. And how curiosity, genuine reflection, and asking the right questions all play a critical role in helping leaders be the best that they can be for the organizations that they lead. What was revealed to me through this discussion today was the impact that taking on an inquiry stance has on helping to build such a strong culture of genuine learning across the board in educational organizations. Whenever I have these conversations with Kath, I'm always drawn back to the amazing work of the late, great Sir Ken Robinson and his inspiring talk, How Schools Killed Creativity. The education profession has traditionally been so focused and concerned on student achievement and results that it has oftentimes failed to recognize the hugely important role that leadership development plays in promoting school environments and systems that genuinely inspire teachers to do their best work possible in order to create the conditions for young learners to truly thrive. Listen to what Sir Ken Robinson says in his talk about where schools have gone wrong and the shift that is needed to get them pointed in the right direction.
SPEAKER_00:What these things have in common is that kids will take a chance. If they don't know, they'll have a go. Am I right? They're not frightened of being wrong. Now, I don't mean to say that being wrong is the same thing as being creative. What we do know is if you're not prepared to be wrong, you will never come up with anything original. If you're not prepared to be wrong. And by the time they get to be adults, most kids have lost that capacity. They have become frightened of being wrong. And we run our companies this, by the way. We stigmatize mistakes. And we're now running national education systems where mistakes are the worst thing you can make. And the result is that we are educating people out of their creative capacities. Picasso once said this. He said that all children are born artists. The problem is to remain an artist as we grow up. I believe this passionately that we don't grow into creativity, we grow out of it.
SPEAKER_06:For all stakeholders and organizations to genuinely flourish, schools must be led by those who are willing to take risk, nurture and support, and ultimately lead through the lens of inquiry itself. So with that introduction, let's now jump right into the conversation I had with the inspiring Kath Murdoch. Kath, it's great to have you back on the show for a fourth time.
SPEAKER_05:Is it really?
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. Yeah. And I was thinking about that today, and we've obviously been connected a long time, and I just keep following your journey, you know, and it's it's amazing what you're doing. And you know, most of the listeners are familiar with your work, but can you just let us know for the ones that might not be familiar with your work? Can you let us know who you are, where you're from, and the work that you have devoted yourself to?
SPEAKER_02:Of course. Um, thanks for having me back on, Andy. That's always a delight. Um, so yes, I'm I'm Kath Murdoch and I um consult in the area of inquiry-based learning and have done for a very long time now, over 30 years. Um I've researched and written and worked with teachers and children in that that field. My um interest is primarily in the primary years. So from sort of three, four-year-olds right through to twelve-year-olds, I was a primary teacher um originally and actually still consider myself to be one. In my heart, that's where I um feel most at home. So I spend a lot of time in schools all around the world. I'm based in Australia. I'm currently in the UK. Um, part of a long trip working with different schools. So that's who I am and what I do.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, great. You're in London right now, uh giving a series of workshops.
SPEAKER_02:Is it London or uh I'm actually I'm I'm um pausing at the moment. Uh have family over here, so I'm I'm actually in a tiny little village called Averley, um in in Worcester, Worcestershire. And uh but I was in London prior to that. I've worked in Scotland and Wales, and after this I head on to work in Paris and then take a kind of right-hand turn and and work in Portland at the end. So this has been a really the longest continuous work trip that I've ever done. Um I've been keeping a little diary of the trip in the form of an alphabet, a word a day, because it's a 26-day trip. So that's that's been on my social media. So that's been really interesting just to track it.
SPEAKER_06:Hortland would be Bodo's school.
SPEAKER_02:That's correct.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, yeah. Never met him, but we've been in touch, obviously, through the through the network. But um, you know, when I think of your work, I think of you said that you're primarily in primary, but you certainly inspired the likes of Trevor Mackenzie, who has brought the inquiry lens to all of his work in middle school and high school.
SPEAKER_05:That's right.
SPEAKER_06:So it's been great to connect with Trevor and and hear, you know, a lot about his work as well. And I know you two have worked together quite closely. But when you think of your journey in education, based on those 30 years of doing your consulting work and teaching and writing, uh, what is it now that you feel most compelled to share with the world?
SPEAKER_02:That's an interesting question. I to be honest, I think a sense of being compelled, what I'm compelled to share tends to be driven by the context in which I am. So there'll be some, you know, some environments where I might feel more compelled to share and explore ideas of play as a pathway to inquiry, for example. And then I might be in other settings where what I'm compelled to work on is the use of the curation of the environment. So I think rather than the drive coming from what I want to share, I feel like more often than not it comes from the needs and the circumstances of the group that I'm working with. Having said that, my most recent book, um, Getting Personal with Inquiry Learning, focuses on the way we can harness children's own interests and passions and questions that are personally meaningful to them and how to harness that for inquiry. So if there was anything I had to say, I'm currently, you know, talking a lot about and sharing and interested in, it's probably that.
SPEAKER_06:And what I hear come alive and what you just described is um the context, as you said, and and basing your work on the individual uh individualized needs of those who you're serving through your work. So it's making as the title um say the title of your book again, getting personal with inquiry.
SPEAKER_02:Getting personal with inquiry, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. So I think that really comes alive in in the words and the way you just described that. Um and as you think about the type of education systems that schools need moving forward based on the changing times and uncertainty of the world, having worked, you know, your work is with teachers, but of course you have to connect with the leaders of these organizations first to assess their needs, right? And to and to work with these leaders. But um, what types of leaders do you do you think we need based on the these changing times? And what do you think leaders really need to let go of within themselves in order to lead their schools into this uncertain future?
SPEAKER_02:Wow, that's a really big question, Andy. Um, whenever I am asked to talk about um leadership in relation to my work, I tend to do so fairly obviously through the lens of inquiry. So I think first and foremost, what leaders need to do and be to do this work well and take schooling into the future is they need to be inquirers. So they need to be people that, and I know this is almost sounding like a cliche now, but they they need to be people that are un that are comfortable with uncertainty, that are really flexible, that are above and beyond, I think, just genuinely curious and open. Leaders need to be learners and be really comfortable in being in having that kind of vulnerability um that often is at odds with our idea of what strong leadership looks like. But the leaders that I've worked with around the world that seem to do their job best are the most humble, open, vulnerable, incredibly well informed, really savvy, but very um very much um of the view that they are learning with their staff. Um and yeah, I think I think curious curious individuals and and brave, of course. You've got to be you've got to have a lot of courage, I think, to do to do this work well. So I always feel that there's just this lovely parallel between the characteristics associated with strong leadership in a school and what we would hope that each teacher would be. So the the sort of pedagogical practices associated with this work as a teacher in many ways, you know. Pedagogical practices, for example, uh the ones I use are that that great inquiry teachers cultivate curiosity, they notice, they're they're very observant, they notice, they keep it real, they're authentic, they release responsibility to their students. There are six others, but even just taking those four, I would say that's the that's what leaders need to be. They need to cultivate curiosity in themselves and others, they need to listen and observe, so really notice. They need to release responsibility, you know. So the same kind of approach as we would use in the classroom should be happening or mirrored in by the leadership team.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, that's a great message. And I told you right before this interview, I I had the uh opportunity uh to interview uh Ali Pekka Heinen, the director general of the IB. And one of the things he has really taken a lot of pride of pride in in regards to his own leadership is that he used to be in politics, and he said politics was about ego and power. And he's learned over the years to um really present himself in in a way um that exemplifies the Finnish culture, which is a it's a very humble culture. And the quote I shared with him was uh humility will always open more doors than arrogance ever will.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:And and he spoke about that. And in hearing you describe the types of leaders we need, I recently had Charles Feldman on my podcast. He he uh is a mentor to Brene Brown, and um Brene uses Charles's definition of trust. So he's a uh expert in trust. And what Brene um says is that his his definition of trust is what really changed her work at trust and distrust. And the definition of trust is making something that's valuable to me, important to me, vulnerable to another person's actions.
SPEAKER_02:And say that say that again.
SPEAKER_06:So it's making something that's important to me or something I value vulnerable to another person's actions. Whereas whereas dis distrust his definition of distrust is what's valuable to to me or important to me is not safe with you in this moment or any other moment. So what you're talking about is this idea of being being inquires. And I talked with Charles about this when I said, like this idea of inquiry within and really understanding as a leader what my emotional triggers are, and being curious about that. So I can best learn to deal with my emotional triggers in a way that uh doesn't have me come off as harsh and cruel and mean. But there's a lot of research now around this idea of inquiring within and and really better understanding ourselves. So can you just speak more about that through the lens of inquiry and and self-growth in leaders?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. Well, I I feel like I want to expand it to not just leaders, but well, we're all leaders and we and that includes the children that we work with. And I guess I've used that phrase inquire within a gazillion times over the year and over the years, and I think for an inquiry culture, so for well, obviously a leader needs to do this, but I would say that teachers and teachers and children right across an inquiry community, I would argue that why there's this this sort of parallel track, you know, there's these this dual highway of learning, if you like, where on the one hand you are um inquiring into whatever you might be inquiring into. So in the classroom it might be inquiring into narrative text or inquiring into you know movement or whatever it might be, but regardless of what you're actually inquiring into, you are always able to simultaneously inquire into the self. And so I the the image I often have in my head is sort of a two two, you know, uh double-headed arrow. I'm looking out and I'm looking in at the same time. And so when I'm working with children, one of the things we try and do is is to keep toggling between those two to say, well, you know, it might be so what what are we learning about the way that we can, you know, what are we figuring out about how to really get that ball to to go as far as possible if we're doing something around, you know, ball handling skills. But at the same time, in that moment it might be, and what are you noticing about yourself while you try and do this? What's going on for you inside, or how does that feel? Or ooh, now that was a challenging task. How let's just take a moment to notice how we reacted to that task. So we actually have an opportunity to, as leaders, whether that be teachers in the classroom or leaders of school, to model that that kind of toggling between inquiring outward and inquiring inward when we acknowledge, when we notice and name what's going on for us. So we might be saying in the classroom, you know, this goes to your trust piece, uh that's teachers trusting that they might be able to say something like, you know what, kids, I've just noticed that I have asked you some questions and I really haven't been listening to what you've been saying. I've been distracted. Um can we start this conversation again? And I need to be more present with you. Moments like that where the children can hear the internal discourse of the educator as a learner and understand what's going on. Same for leaders. We so appreciate it, don't we? We never hear this from our politicians because, as you say, it's all about ego. But when we hear a leader say, Look, everyone, I just need to let you know what's going on for me right now, or I just need to pause and let you know this is happening for me. I'm just feeling really uncomfortable here. Just a moment to express the moment of inquiry into the self. So, you know, I think every classroom, perhaps every staff room, needs to have that enduring question that travels across the year. What are we learning about ourselves? Yeah, as we inquire, not just what are we learning about?
SPEAKER_06:I was just gonna say in the PYP world, that's revisiting the who we are unit several times throughout the year to see how your identity is changing as a result of your learning, right? And if I was, if I I just want to share one experience I had because I'm back to teaching again and I absolutely love it. It's it's amazing. And so I'm teaching PE and all of these ideas, you know, all of these things I've worked very closely with teachers alongside teachers over the past few years as a coach. I'm now like really applying a very healthy internal pressure to apply myself. And I feel like a novice, I really do because I'm structuring things differently. And last week I I had I would think it would be a big win. Um, you imagine our gym is divided by a white curtain and the acoustics are not very good. So if there's a class on the other side and you're trying to instruct on your own side, it you know, the the kids can get really distracted. So that requires me to uh use a very loud voice that is unlike me. So it was a grade two class, and we were doing this fun activity, and I noticed one boy um looked really upset. He had like a sad face and and uh looked like he was on the verge of tears. So we transitioned, like we flip-flopped. So we did uh one station on one side, one station on the other, then the teacher on the other side, and I flip-flopped so that I did the station on the other side. And when we went over to the other side, the boy was now crying. And I pulled him over and I was like, Do you want to sit down for a few minutes? And he just wouldn't say anything, just looked very angry, upset. And he sat down on the bench, then I got the activity started, and I went and sat beside him and I said, What's going on for you? Like, what are you feeling right now? Like, what do you want to share with me? I and he wouldn't say anything. I said, Are you angry? You seem angry, and he and he nodded, and I said, Who are you angry at? And he pointed at me. Pointed right at me without saying anything, wasn't even looking at me, just shot his index finger right like an inch from my nose. And I said, Please tell me what happened. And he said, You're screaming today. Oh no, you're screaming, you're angry. And I said, I'm so sorry. This is what's happening for me is that there's a class on the other side, and if I don't speak in a loud voice, the kids can't hear. And I said, Can I give you can you help me out here? I said, Watch. And I stopped the activity and I spoke in a normal voice, and none of the kids heard me. So then he got up and he, we have this quiet camel thing, right? So he got up and he started doing quiet camel to everybody so that they were quiet and they still couldn't hear me. And then they had to move closer. And then he said to me, I understand, Mr. Andy. I'm I'm sorry. I said, No, don't you be sorry. I said, Thank you so much for being willing to share your feelings with me because I had no idea. And then I explained to the class with his permission what happened. And I said, I'm using a voice today that I don't normally use. And the kids agreed. And then I it was a moment for me, never assume anything, you know. So I just wanted to to share that because I love that story.
SPEAKER_02:It's it speaks to your it speaks to the trust that you've established actually with with the children, and that that so many little, you know, the tiny moments in that that that was so beautiful to take the child aside to make that moment of, you know, let me just find out what's going on for you. Not doing that in front of others, not not demanding that he tell you, accepting that he's telling you by just doing those non-verbal signals, and then also being being fine with apologizing. So I'm really sorry that you know, these are all n none of these things are associated with our traditional image of the all-powerful teacher, are they? You know, and and uh so I think that's that's a really that's a gosh, yeah, important.
SPEAKER_06:It helped me the rest of the week. I I framed up in the first minute, I was a I'm using a loud voice today. I, you know, I kind of briefly told the kids in other classes what happened, and I said, uh, I have to use a loud voice because the sound in the gym is not very good, so we all need to be excellent listeners. So yeah, it was it was cool, and it was a uh, you know, I was proud of that because I took the time to really connect with him. But I just wanted to take a quick time out here. I hope you are enjoying the discussion that I'm having with Kath. And if you like what you're hearing, I'd be very happy if you could check out other episodes from my Run Your Life podcast as well, share them with people who you think will benefit from listening. Here is a snippet from a podcast, actually one of my favorites, that I recorded last year with award-winning journalist and former Esquire magazine writer Cal Futzman.
SPEAKER_01:My mom comes running up the steps for our apartment, holding this envelope in her right hand, and it's from the White House. From the And the beauty of this letter was that it was not written down to a second grader. It was written with reference. And I knew that when we got to the second sentence that we got something like, in answer to your query, I had no idea what a query was.
SPEAKER_06:Cal was great friends with Larry King and wrote his biography from Stoop to Nuts. As well, he spent time with Mohammed Ali, I think it was a week straight at Muhammad Ali's estate. And he spent time with him to write a long-form article about his life for Esquire. You name it, from former Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Gorbachev to George Clooney, Serena Williams, and even Nelson Mandela. He has interviewed some of the most influential people throughout his career. Cal is truly full of insight and wisdom. You can find a link to my conversation with Cal in the show notes of today's episode. I just wanted to drop that in there in case you want to listen to any other episodes from my podcast. But with that, let's jump right back into my chat with Kath Murdoch. I I want to go into your books, um, your recent books. So you came on uh a couple years ago. When did Power of Inquiry come out?
SPEAKER_02:Uh that was that's just had its sixth anniversary. Okay.
SPEAKER_06:So you came on, and I remember you saying it was such a beast for you to write that book.
SPEAKER_04:It was.
SPEAKER_06:And I remember at the time it was like you weren't even thinking about writing anything else. But um, yeah, for the listeners, tell us about your recent books and um what do you want people to know about them and where can they get copies of it?
SPEAKER_02:Oh um, so there's since that, since The Power of Inquiry, which by the way, I'm working on the second edition of that at the moment. So the beast, the beast has risen again. Um but since then I've published two books. One is a book for children um called The Wonder of Winsome, and that's a picture book about really exploring the concept of curiosity and how children have their curiosity diminished when they come to school, and what happens to them when that happens, and what teachers and parents can do about that. So that's that was a real delight, very lovely, interesting, creative journey to produce that. Um and then the other one that's been bubbling along, which also much and all as I do try and say every time I go to write a book, keep this one manageable, keep it, you know, you don't have to anyway. I can't. I it it's always a deep dive for me. I I can't write a um surface level, sort of shallow, easy, easily, easily digestible book. Although I do hope that this um is still very user-friendly. Um yeah, but this so this latest one is, as I said before, it's really a guide to helping um children or using the interests, the passions, the questions that we notice our children have, even very individual and personal ones, and how we might allow school to be a place where they can actually pursue those rather than having to wait until they're not at school um to actually find out about the things or get better at the things that they love. So um a good half of the book is very practical guidance as to how to do that. The first half of the book is really all about laying the foundations for that because I don't it it doesn't work particularly well if you don't have a really strong and fruitful culture of inquiry to begin with. So I revisit some of the things in the power of inquiry, but take them a step further.
SPEAKER_06:So yeah. Also, it says um that uh just in the description of the book, um, it's that it's rich with classroom examples, templates to guide planning, and accompanied by advice from a range of highly respected educators from around the world. So just speak to some of those classroom examples and templates uh that people can expect if they buy the book.
SPEAKER_02:Sure. Um, well, the the the templates part, and I'm always very nervous about putting anything that could remotely look like a worksheet in a book, because I never ever use them myself as in worksheets. But the the the templates are really just examples of what thing like a structure could be if a child, for example, has a particular interest in something, and then we talk about the the children pitching their ideas to the group. So this isn't simply about I love dinosaurs, so I'm gonna do a project on dinosaurs. The templates are about slowing that process down and really thinking through what that personal journey of inquiry might look like and using the templates. And I've just given lots of different examples, and then my idea, as I say in the book, is for the children and the teachers to create their own. Um so there's that kind of thing. Um, I've worked on personal inquiry um for the last decade. So in various schools and classrooms, we've really just been investigating how do we make this work, how do we make it so that it isn't. I've seen some of the stuff that's often around in kind of genius hour idea that I think kind of misses the point of it. Um they do become sort of a shallow project in you know, kids make cupcakes and that's it. It it's it this this attempts to be uh a more substantial um and perhaps a more rigorous way of doing it. So I've used lots of examples from the schools that I've worked in. And then um, yeah, some some great educators I've had the pleasure of either working with or mentoring um in different parts of the world that were kind enough to be part of the research for the book and their wonderful quotes, um, educators like Miss Misty Patterson and Trevor Mackenzie and Graham Lang and Nellie Gibson and a whole Sam Sherrett. So people that have also been playing with this idea of how do we really not just go through a a year where we all do the same unit um, you know, as we move through the year, but where individuals feel like they're really seen and their ideas are really valued and they get to play to their strengths. Um so the forward by um Yong Zhao really positions the whole book around this idea of playing, playing to your strengths, which he's of course written so much about himself.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, he's he's great. He came on my podcast last year. Um, but you know, what what you're describing is really shining the light on others too in your work and bringing those other educators in. Some of them I know they're brilliant at what they do, and that's what a great leader does. So being a great leader yourself, you shine the light on others and and their work, and you know, I think that probably means so much to them. There is a little bit, I just want to tell the listeners that I'm recording this from the conference so you can hear the chatter of learning in the background. So I hope it's not too distracting. But uh segueing into the last one. Oh, so can you tell us where you can find the books?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, um, yes, actually this one, Amazon, Book Typia, all the all those um different platforms. Um, or if a school wants to buy a set, they can just contact me and I can um organize that for them at a discount.
unknown:Yep.
SPEAKER_06:Okay, great. So I'll include that in the show notes. So that would be uh they can contact you through your website. So I'll just put your website in.
SPEAKER_05:Thank you.
SPEAKER_06:Okay. So in closing, I want to share a quote. Um, so I have a lot of quotes up in my office at home, and uh I want to share a quote with you uh that Denzel a quote from a commencement speech that Denzel Washington gave a few years ago, and and then ask you one final question. But what Denzel Washington said was we all have gifts that we have been blessed with in life. For example, some of you have been given the gift of patience or kindness, some of you have been given the gift of spreading love through your work, or even some of you have been given the gift of long suffering. Whatever your gift is, don't waste it. Always ask yourself, what am I going to do with the gift I've been given? So if you were to project forward to the end of your life and be looking back on all the things you accomplished and gave to the world, what would you be most proud of within yourself looking back at the contribution you made to the world of education?
SPEAKER_02:Wow, that's that's getting deep there, Andy. Um do you know, interestingly, when you use that phrase, you know, end of your life, looking back, what would you be most proud of? My head did not go to education at all. I, you know, I love my work. I I you know have done it for a long time. I I'm and I'm totally wanting to continue to make a contribution. But to to be honest, I feel like the thing that I'm most proud of, if that's even the right word to use, um is my family, it's my kids, it's the connections in, you know, I'm sitting here in the um study of my my uncle's study in the English countryside, and I'm actually looking at, I'm staring at a photograph of my um grandparents and their children, and I'm surrounded by um you know, really substantial family connections and that goes straight to my heart. I love being an educator, but um I think the contribution that you make if you're lucky enough to have a close connected family and to just be able to bring kids up into the world as reasonably good human beings, that feels good, right? That that to me feels good and I just hope and I think that keeps me motivated and energized to continue to do the work that is essentially for other people's children. Um and that that keeps filling filling my cup. I never want my work to be so all-consuming that I I um lose that connection with home. So yeah, I think that's that's probably what I'm I'm most proud of.
SPEAKER_06:Well, it's been amazing seeing seeing your daughters. Uh one's a dancer, one's a musician. Um that's right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:She's really flourishing. Yeah. So uh how is um what do things look like for your daughters in terms of their pursuits?
SPEAKER_02:Um well Greta's in LA at the moment, busily working on her next album. And you know, I've I actually write a bit about them in the foreword to this book, uh, only because um I think that they especially Greta was really lucky to have there there weren't many, but a few teachers in her time in school that saw saw that light, saw the thing. Music was the thing. She was born singing, and music was the thing that she was constantly drawn to. And the teachers in her life that saw that, that nurtured it, that gave her lots of opportunities to do do this when she was at school, that they made such a difference. Like they they really did you know, I dedicate I've written about those teachers in the forward because if it wasn't for them, I don't think she'd be where she is now. And I think the same goes for Holly. Holly's actually now um dances for pleasure rather than work, and she um is now doing a a uh degree in public health. But again, you think back over their time and there's one or two teachers that that took the time to say, Who are you? Who are you? And how might I can connect with who you are? And I think you probably have the same experience with your boys, I imagine, Andy. And as a parent, the sense of gratitude that you have for those teachers who take a moment to value your child simply for who they are, and it it it's priceless. You just want to give it give them. I mean, you I was gonna say you just want to give them a hug. I actually did give them hugs. Um but you know, I think where where my kids are at the moment, which is you know, at the moment happy and productive individuals, um, but I can genuinely say that their journey was made better, sometimes made worse by some teachers, but on the whole made better by a few extraordinary teachers. And that's what I would say to all teachers, all leaders, even you know, as a principal of a school, it's about what's what's the offer that each of my staff members can make? Even the most difficult recalcitrant ones, where's where's that little glimmer of light and where's where's their gift? You know, going back to the quote you just read. That's our challenge, isn't it? That with a spirit of curiosity, what's what's your contribution to the group? And gosh, it makes a difference when you bring that mindset to your work.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, for sure. This this summer I'll just share a quick story with you. But I had a uh mentor, uh teacher in high school. He was there for me throughout all of high school, a very special man. Um when I was in grade 11, there was a local radio station that put on a citizen of the year award, and you had to write a letter to nominate somebody. So I wrote a letter to the radio station why this teacher, Mr. Millette, Dennis Millette, should be the citizen of the year. So it turns out that he wins the citizen of the year. So the radio station asks me to present it to him in front of the school, but I'm too shy. And I say, no, I don't want to do that. So they came to the school and they presented it to him. And I lost touch with him after high school. And it was about 10 years after that my wife Neela and I, and the boys, when they were really young, were at a coffee shop in Canada, and I saw him and I was like, I told my wife about him so much. And I went over to him and I gave him a huge hug. And I said, Boys, this is Mr. Millette. I told you about my favorite teacher from high school. Here he is. And then he told the story to my boys about the letter. And he said that's still up on his wall at home. So then over after that, um, we kind of lose touch and then we reconnect, and he went to uh my father's funeral. And and then this summer, I meant to reach out to him when because I returned back to my hometown, and I kept thinking, I've got to give him a call. And I found his number. And literally the day that I got his phone number, I got a message that he passed away the day before.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, Angie.
SPEAKER_06:And wow. It yeah, like I think about it, and I was like, Yeah, I was in tears. I was like, why didn't I call him?
SPEAKER_05:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:I had one more chance to call him and I didn't. But long story short, um, I got to go to his funeral and I brought my son. Yeah, my other son was out of town, but I brought my son to the funeral, and then we went to the luncheon after, and I just happened to be sitting with his um nieces uh who I didn't know. And then I told the story, and they're like, You're the guy. And then they said that letter is still on the wall. So they went back to the apartment and they took a photo of it, and it's my hand written my handwritten letter and uh letter from the radio station and the certificate, and they sent it to me, and I was like, you know, that's so special.
SPEAKER_02:You know, it's and it is that taking that moment, you know, for all of us, whether it's in our work or our family context, just to take that moment to say, I'm gonna, I want you to know that I see you and value you for what you've done, either for me or for others. And it doesn't take much to do it, but goodness it makes a well a lifelong difference. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:So, Kath, where can people find you on social media?
SPEAKER_02:Uh so at KJ Inquiry is my handle for Twitter and Instagram, and Kath Murdoch Consulting for Facebook. And I think it's the same for LinkedIn, although I don't use that very much. But I'm pretty active at the moment on um Instagram and Facebook as I write reflections on my journey and on inquiry throughout my 26 days of traveling. So uh what letter are you on? Uh I'm up to Q today. Yeah. Okay, good.
SPEAKER_06:Excellent. So you have a few more days.
SPEAKER_02:Uh yes, I do.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah. So, anyways, yeah, thank you for your time today, Kath. I really appreciate it. I love our discussions.
SPEAKER_02:It's always a delight, Andy. Thanks for having me on. And can I say thank you for the contribution that you make with this podcast? It makes a difference. Thank you.
SPEAKER_06:Thank you very much. Everybody, thank you very much for listening to this episode with Kath Murdoch, and I hope you come back to listen to future episodes.