Run Your Life Show With Andy Vasily
Run Your Life Show With Andy Vasily
#272: Climbing Beyond Limits- A Story of Courage and Transformation with Jill Wheatley
In today's episode, I sit down with the amazing Jill Wheatley, an elite ultra athlete and mountaineer. Having climbed 7 of the highest peaks in the world including K2, the second highest mountain in the world at 28000 feet, Jill has made it her life mission to keep pushing the goal posts in her life. Her aim is clear — to pursue excellence within herself, while also inspiring countless other people along the way.
Jill was almost killed in a tragic accident back in 2014 which caused a traumatic brain injury. This accident forced her to not have to learn to walk again, it also left her with permanent vision loss. What she has been able to accomplish with only 30% of her vision speaks volumes for the resilience and courage she has built since her accident. The lessons she shares in today’s conversation are profound.
From learning how to navigate deep grief and despair to being able to grapple with fear of uncertainty to developing the self-compassion needed to be nurturing with herself in her darkest hours —you'll see for yourself that Jill is full of insight and wisdom. She is a fantastic role model for anyone pursuing tough things in their life.
As you get ready to listen, I hope you can take a pause to think about the great things you’ve been able to accomplish in your own life. What roles did resilience, self-compassion, drive and purpose play in getting you to where you want to be? As you listen to Jill’s journey, I hope you connect with many of the lessons she shares.
For those still struggling to find deeper hope and purpose, listen closely and learn from her. The tools and strategies she shares will be immediately applicable in your life.
Regardless of who you are or where you are listening to this podcast from, I hope you find awesome takeaway value from this discussion between Jill Wheatley and myself.
Please connect with Jill after listening and follow her work, it’ll be well worth your time and effort. As well, please share this episode with anyone who you feel will benefit from tuning it.
Connect With Jill
Thank you, Andy. Just for saying that. I have like goosebumps because I feel like you understand the process of grief and loss. And sometimes it's not something tangible. And some may say, well, your eyesight is somewhat tangible. Yeah. But that grief is still something I'm working through. I just felt from that time, the more I digested it, I felt so many labels. And now visually impaired was just another label that was leading me to feel such little value as a human.
SPEAKER_04:As always, I want to thank you for your time and your energy and for tuning in to any episode that you can. I really do appreciate it. I've been at podcasting for quite a while now. It's been over ten years, and I think this is the 271st episode. The main aim of each episode is to really take a deep dive into the mindset of amazing people doing pretty incredible things in the world. From learning how to navigate air. To being able to grapple with the fear of certainty, to developing itself needed to be nurturing with yourself and feel fear for yourself. It's full of insight and it's truly a fantastic role model for anyone. In particular, share anything that resonates with you. Anything you want people to know about after listening to the step stuff. So with that, let's now jump into my conversation with the inspiring Jill Weekly. Thanks for listening. So I'll probably cut out parts of that and add it into the upcoming conversation that people will listen to. On your website, you have a great two-minute audio clip that shares a snippet into your journey. And if it's okay with you, I want to include that in the introduction and let your introduction speak for itself. You know, usually I introduce the guests, but so I will include that. But in advance to our conversation, I really want to thank you for your time and your energy and your willingness to come on. We've been trying to make it happen for a while, but I'm really grateful for this opportunity to talk to you. Your story is really inspiring and I want more people to hear about it.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks so much, Andy. Uh, and you as well. Thanks for making the time to make this happen. And with both of our shared stories, I do hope that we can reach others and perhaps add a little bit of light and inspiration on their trails.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely. So for those who haven't heard about you, can you just share who you are, where you're from, and what you feel most compelled to share about your message?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, geez, how many hours do we have? Well, another common, I'll try to go quick. Please feel free to interrupt at any time. Um, but in a nutshell, uh, I'm originally from Northern Ontario, grew up with very active parents who kept me outdoors all of the time. So no matter what the weather, put on that jacket or that snowsuit and play outside. I feel that that's just stayed with me. Um, the role of fitness and adventure has just been instilled from my parents, uh, which I'm so thankful for. With that sense of adventure after college, I wasn't sure what to do. I was very active. Um, I took PE because society kind of told me I should go to university, even though I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I thought, well, if I'm gonna go, I might as well like do something that I'm ex that gets me excited. Like, and PE class in high school was probably the only class that I um could stay focused in. Anyway, um, so that's what I chose to do. And then even after like a my undergraduate degree, I was like, okay, now what? And well, maybe I'll go to teachers' college because if I can um help the next generation find the passion for physical education and health the way that my mentors did, that my parents did, that my ski coach Brian Mealy back in northern Ontario did, then maybe that is something worth pursuing. So I did that, I got into teachers college some kind of miracle. Um but then just serendipitously, you know, jobs were hard, jobs were hard to come by. And right after I didn't think I'd get a job, so I took my mountain bike and I flew out to Whistler. I was going to ride my bike and maybe work in a bike shop or a ski shop, something like that. Um, but by the time I got there, I called my mom just to say, hey, everything's good. She says, Well, you got a call from this school board in southern Ontario. And I'm like, oh no. Like, okay, I have to have, like, I should at least do the interview, but a proper job was a little bit daunting. Um, fast forward, got the job, but it was cut almost immediately, just the way um the education system works. I was lowest on the totem pole, but the principal at the school had just come back from a two-year leave of absence in Singapore, and I was like, hmm, that sounds warm and wonderful. By midnight that night, I had a job in Singapore. So, I mean, for the next school year.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I I lived quite simply. I always have, I don't have many things, and so it was easy just um like literally pack a backpack and off I went for what I thought was gonna be two years. Um, and then I would come back and like settle down and all those things. Well, I've never come back to Canada until last year. Um, and since then, that two years in Singapore turned into five, um, where I traveled throughout Southeast Asia. I did my master's uh through the University of Western Australia in education administration. So combining my love for outdoors and phys ed, but also with administration because this is part of my personality as well, that I was a teacher, but then oh, I need to keep like what can I do next? So I should be head of department or head of grade, um, head of PE. And then so I kept moving up and up and got into administration uh curriculum and I was actually a principal for a while. Um, between Singapore and then Russia and then Switzerland, and I swore that uh I would never do anything administrative-wise again. I just wanted to teach PE. And when I wasn't in the gym or on the fields or in the woods with the kids running, that I would be, you know, mountain biking or I would be riding, I would be skiing. And Switzerland has some pretty tight uh visa restrictions. And unfortunately, after three years, I had to say goodbye. But thankfully, I had grown professionally enough and made enough connections that very quickly all I had to do was get in my little Subaru and go down the Autobahn three hours, and I was in Munich. I had a job in the PE department there.
SPEAKER_05:Um Munich International School.
SPEAKER_01:Munich International School, so in Starnberg, yeah. And um, that's where I met Sonia, uh, very, very first day because we were both starting together. And then so that first year was just getting settled in the new school. Germany and Switzerland are not quite as similar as one may be led to believe. So was feeling like I was just getting settled. So the beginning of the second year, it was yeah, I just felt like I I knew my colleagues, I knew the school, I knew students who I would be coaching. I always um coached cross-country and then track and then some skiing as well. And it was the second Thursday on September 3rd, 2014, a day like any other. Uh, a little bit actually like a little bit like the weather here in Canmar this morning, a little overcast, wasn't sure, but you know, in autumn, um that fresh smell, uh, the leaves changing. I thought, we'll just put on our jackets. Um, we're not gonna melt. Whereas my other colleagues chose to stay inside. I would so much rather get a little bit, a little bit rained on rather than be in a gym with, you know, a triple gym with every gym full and basketball bouncing and the noise and the heat stuffiness. So my 10th grade students, I I truly believe that they felt and caught um my enthusiasm, like the passion that I have. I was just as active as they were in the class. Um, we had done a warm-up, one of the like rock, paper, scissors where you run around the field, and and this particular lesson was the first day with um balls and baseball bags. And everything was set up the way my lesson plan, like the blueprint I had uh mapped out for for the day for the lesson, and we were sort of in three different, we'll just say, like learning centers. And everyone was doing what they were intended to be doing. However, one of my students who had never used uh a baseball bat before, was a very talented and strong 16-year-old cricket player. So he he knew that connection. But unfortunately, his follow-through did not go towards first base, it went way, let's say, west of third base where I was. That ball struck me. Um, just think for those listening of if you know American baseball, like uh a line drive basically, um, to the side of my right head. Sorry, I only have one head, to the right side of my head. Um and instantly my eye closed uh and it blew up the size of a baseball. And the purples, the blues, the greens, black, like the color was just um clearly there was something seriously wrong. And I kind of fell to or made my way to the ground, not completely like I was sort of in and out of consciousness, but um leaning sort of on my left hand, holding my head with my right students, they ran to get help. I was taken to the local hospital, and apparently I passed the test, the concussion test. I don't even remember to be honest. I remember um a man's face being very close to mine. I remember green scrubs like uh emergency room doctors wearing. And I remember like this the silver uh stainless steel and the bright lights. That's about all. And then, but apparently I knew what my name was and maybe it was my birthday or what day of the week it was, I don't even know. But I answered well enough for them to allow my other two friends, colleagues, Melinda and who who I also taught PE with, and Andy, who was the head of our PE department, um, they they let them bring me home to the Bavarian loft where I lived, like very typical farmhouse. They got me upstairs and basically I knew there was some intuition, like I have a relationship with intuition since that since that day that um is incredibly strong. I knew there was something more than just a black eye. Yet at the same time, something within me was questioning, well, who am I? I'm just a PE teacher. Who am I to question a medical professional or like the emergency room doctors? And about a day and a half later, so like the next closer to midnight, the next night, Chris uh friend had flown in from the UK. He was gonna take me because I was competing in the World Duathlon Championships that weekend. And I thought originally I I thought, well, it's just a black eye, of course. I've been training for this like for a year, like this is the A race. And anyway, he he got there and rushed me right back to that hospital. I had basically been in and out of consciousness in my in my own vomit, and my black eye had never reopened. So what I remember from that first hospital visit, basically the next four months were in neurointensive care. So the hospital that Chris brought me back to, they put me in an ambulance and rushed me to a neurotrauma hospital in Myrnow so I could see a garmish area, like the foothills of the Alps, and a beautiful place, but not to be on a neurotrauma unit where my black eye had actually been a result of my brain bleeding and swelling while my that ball actually fractured my skull. So all of the complications of uh traumatic brain injury, um, like as much as every human, every accident is unique, so like exponentially is that of a traumatic brain injury. So it was really hard to digest at first, like this is stuff that you only hear about in movies, and those movies aren't real.
SPEAKER_04:Can I pause you there? And as you share the story, um, and you're looking back now 11 years, right? And you've shared the story a number of times and with different audiences, and yeah, you know what what comes up for you when you when you're sharing it?
SPEAKER_01:Um maybe if I only knew then what I know now. I mean that sounds uh I think no matter how with with uh with age that comes naturally, I think, with everyone. Like, oh, if I knew what I knew now, like in high school, I wouldn't have done those stupid things or um, but now like the lessons that have come out of my brain injury, um, and that just trusting, like the I was angry because the doctors couldn't tell me when am I gonna be better, when am I gonna get out, when am I gonna start to walk? Like, and I wanted answers, but there is no timeline with brain injuries.
SPEAKER_04:So was there a physical was there a physical decline, a continued physical decline um in the in this weeks and months following?
SPEAKER_01:Significantly so. I basically went from like the fittest like elite level athlete to being bedridden to a point where like I had to be for six more than six months, I had to have one-to-one. Like where I um I was we can maybe come to this later, but I was eventually transferred to the medical care I needed was only available in Colorado. And I had for six months, like one to one, where a certified nurse's assistant could not be more than one meter from me because I was that fragile. So not only had the um brain injury uh like with all of well with the wake of all of the the physical and the emotional impact of it, but also the area with um of my brain that is responsible for appetite was affected. And so I had zero relationship with food. And when you're trying to heal from a brain injury, I mean, if you're trying to like just get through daily life, you need to fuel your tank to to be able to run. And I simply was not getting the nutrition that I needed to survive, never mind to heal the brain injury. So with the cognitive, the motor, the sensation, the emotion, like all of the sort of different components of the brain injury, none of them could really be addressed while I was like failing physically. Um, because the the brain was like not, it wasn't triggering me, it wasn't telling me like you need to eat. And even when it was when I was being forced to, I wouldn't. I then was had this athlete mentality of, well, if I'm doing a hundred K on my bike, I need to eat this many calories to fuel for this. But then I was like, Oh, I'm just lying in a bed, like I'm literally not doing anything. I don't need to eat. And it's not like the injury that I have right now, it's not like I can see all the broken legs or all the bones, broken bones in my leg with a brain injury. Yeah, you could see because my the blood in my face and all the bruising, but sometimes the uh invisible injuries um be a little bit harder to especially to explain to others. Sorry, I might have gone on a tangent there. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_04:No, no, that's okay. Cause I'm in terms of the time frame and the rehabilitation, and was your eyesight impacted immediately?
SPEAKER_01:So um, oh, you could hear that. I guess no matter how many times I tell the story, it's still um, it's still hard that what I was mentioning earlier about the timeline and with the neurologist saying, like, we don't know, like two more weeks, and they thought that I was going like initially they focused once they the MRI showed the bleeding and the swelling of my brain, that's where they focused their attention. And they thought at the time that it was because of all the bleeding and swelling that my um eye was closed like that, closed and swollen. Makes sense. Um, but they thought once that cleared with time, that the eye would eventually kind of like relax and everything would open up again, it would heal. Um, and so my frustration just seemed to escalate with each push of the goalpost, like two more weeks, two more weeks, and they would say that, and I could like every morning at eight o'clock, they would come for their rounds in the hospital, and I could hear their footsteps and you know the medical cart and all the sounds, and I would just I was angry, I was so so angry.
SPEAKER_04:Um, and how did you process that anger at the time?
SPEAKER_01:Not well, um, not well at all. And adding to that was the frustration of being an English speaker in a German hospital. Um, though the doctors could speak English, it it never felt, and at times like they would use a little bit of English, but it never I never felt if the right word is welcome in the hospital. Like I just felt like I was an additional problem. I was a burden. Like the the Canadian woman who doesn't speak German. Well, yeah, with with every push of those goalposts, I just get kept getting more and more angry. And I didn't have like journaling had been my I guess my outlet. I had had a therapist before, but had been out of touch with her just because the way life was okay at the time of the accident. I hadn't been having regular sessions, and at that point in the hospital, like it wasn't my mental health was not I'm like immediately, it was not really um I guess addressed.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh it wasn't until later that like when I got into a neuro rehab center that I was set up with like a psychologist therapist, and that didn't go well either either. And I think that part of it was my anger, but also part of it was a language barrier and lack of empathy. Um, I think in the beginning.
SPEAKER_04:Um did you feel, you know, you sound so independent, you know, your journey was one of independence from the time you went out to BC, to southern uh southwestern Ontario, to Singapore, to Russia, to Switzerland. So it sounded like there was a one of your strengths uh was being independent, fiercely independent. And do you think if you double-click on the anger that part of what might have been coming up was the loss of independence as well?
SPEAKER_01:A thousand percent, yeah. Yeah, because I was like, I couldn't live independently anymore. The loss of autonomy, like losing my driver's license still is one of the hardest parts of losing more than 70% of my eyesight. Like originally they're like my I remember Dr. Paul Paul's was his name, and he put this big red X through some kind of form. It was about like all of the the implications going through some kind of questionnaire, and it was like a big red X when it came to driving. But at first, like it was at this point they didn't know my eyesight was not gonna come back. This was the impact of the brain brain injury and the um the cognitive functioning, like at that point, like no concentration and abil and or no ability like to focus. And so, you know, talk about firing um anger, firing and fueling my anger. Um, but then it was at the sixth month mark where I was sent to an university hospital in Tubingen, Germany, like so another another whole province, another whole part of the country, and um, because that's what they like they literally had a neuro ophthalmology department in their university, so like the most specialized, and it was at that six-month mark when and that visit where I've spent literally an entire day going through every type of eye, acuity, um, like all the vision tests that could ever be done. And it was then that it was then determined that I would not get my eyesight back. And that day I remember it so vividly, and that is because the doctor who actually came to tell me it was her approach, her empathy. It was the first time I felt like somebody actually maybe understood that I have feelings too. Um, and just that she sat, not she didn't stand and talk down to me, she sat beside me, like making eye contact as much as I can. That and she just her first words were, I'm sorry. It was like, I'm sorry, you're not going to get your eyesight back. But like that, and explaining that this is what they found and the reasons why it's not curable or fixable. Um, and so that was a bit of a turning point in that, well, do you I wouldn't be expecting any more push of the of the goalposts? Um, like it's done. This is this is it. So now what?
SPEAKER_04:So what what was that like for you? Because when people receive news like that, you know, obviously pushing the goalposts was a sign of optimism and hope for you because you were so driven in life. So it was your natural inherent inner capacity to always push yourself and to look at your next goal. So literally using the goalposts as a metaphor, and you just said so yourself, that that's where the the goalposts stopped. That's where it started. So with that sense of um the goalpost uh halting or stopping can come deep grief or the inner fire to do something else, which obviously, you know, we'll talk about your other pursuits, but where how long did that space last? And what was that space of acceptance, grief, anger? What was that space like for you? And looking back, were you able to access inner strength?
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Andy. Just for saying that, I have like goosebumps because I feel like you understand like the process of grief um and loss, and sometimes it's not something tangible. And some may say, well, your eyesight is somewhat tangible. Yeah, but that grief is still something I'm working through. Um, I just felt from that time the more I digested it, the more I put on this. I felt so many labels. Um, and now visually impaired was just another label that was leading me to feel such little value as a human. I have a brain injury, I have visual impairment, I have an eating disorder, and now they're telling me I have PTSD, which I used to think was like only for people involved in war and guns, and like, no, there's so many, so many pieces, and so losing a part of me, like not only my eyesight, but losing the autonomy and the independence. Um, and just what at that time, like when I look back at the the timeline now, at the time I probably wouldn't have even recognized like this growing sense of shame, just this intensely painful feeling that I'm so flawed that you know I'm not really worth anything. What kind of value do I add to this world? Like at one point there it was like an expectation you have a white cane because you're visually impaired and you stay in your parents' house. Well, that's like not acceptable. And the the combination of the labels and to be honest, like the stereotypes, like when somebody says visually impaired or blind, um, dealing with that, or somebody has a brain injury, like the connotations of what society maybe growing up has led us to believe, you know, telling us who we should be, what we should be, how we should be. And I just felt like none of it.
SPEAKER_04:Well, you know, you're sorry to interrupt, but you're really hitting upon an important point for the listeners because shame is revealed in many forms in many of us. And those of us who have suffered not from near-death experiences, you know, about my accident as well, and yeah and some of the things that I went through. And but whether it be addiction, uh an eating disorder, mental illness in the family, uh alcoholism, whatever it is, we're all touched by uh trauma and we're all touched by somebody's story. Of addiction, whether indirectly or directly. So that theme of shame is one that I want to double click on right now because shame manifests itself in many ways in people's lives. And at an unconscious level, it can really wreak havoc with our mental health. We we may not be able to place our finger on the word shame, but we're experiencing it in a way and processing it in a way that is detrimental to our mental health. And coming from a, you know, I lost my brother to suicide and another brother to drug addiction. And I found American football, you know, and that gave me hope and purpose and meaning. But there was always, I now know it was underlying shame. You know, like and I still, when I do my own internal work in trying to figure out that shame piece, a lot of things come up for me. So for the listeners out there who have experienced what you're describing, but in a different context, give some advice into how you were able to grapple with the shame to ultimately tell yourself a different story because changing our personal narrative is key, cognitively reframing our life and our context is an important frame for healing ourselves and moving on a more empowering path. So again, anybody listening to this who hasn't been impacted by a traumatic accident, they have experienced shame in different ways. So talk about your process of digesting shame and understanding it and grappling with it and what you learned ultimately to um understand that it's a part of you, but it's not going to define you.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, there's there's a lot there. Uh, if I get off track, bring me back in. Um, first is just the power of perspective. And I think for so long I was stuck in that shame. Um, and with time, with moving, relocating to be in mountains is a huge part, surrounding myself with the right people, um, to shift my perspective from the losses to say like, and I don't mean necessarily um physically, but from instead of 70% eyesight, I lost, let's focus on what I've gained. Like I've actually been able to shift from from what I felt life took away from me to what I've actually learned, gained, and grown from. Like I truly now only, like only in the last couple of years, feel that I found purpose in my life. Not saying it didn't have any purpose before, um, but now like the value of shared stories and connections, I've learned that I feel, though no longer a teacher in the literal sense, that the mountains are my classroom and I and others can see the the value of perspective and also what is possible.
SPEAKER_04:So, Jill, you you what you did, if we double-click on it, you renegotiated what purpose means to you. You tapped into your essence, your natural essence that drove you from a young age being outdoors and physically active. You chose to do that. And I think the first step for anybody experiencing shame is to choose uh action, to choose action and move toward the things that are going to lift you up and to lean lean on um your strengths and to lean on others, but essentially renegotiating purpose, what it means to you to know that there's always optimism. And optimism, I said this in my last podcast, is not just positive fluffy thinking. Optimism doesn't mean we're we're not going to experience hardship. Optimism means that we believe in a positive future, but we have to double down on the skills necessary and develop the skills necessary, tap into our essence and renegotiate what purpose means. So I just wanted to add those things in.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I remember being in um the neur one of the neurore rehabilitation centers, and the head head of the unit, um, he was asking me like this these existential questions. And at the time I was so angry, like literally calling BS on them, like at the time. Like he was talking about purpose, and and I truly believe I didn't have one at that time. Like this was in the depths of darkness when I did not believe that life was worth fighting for. Um, but coming back to what you have just said, Andy, I do feel like owning my experience, like after so long, there's just been this transition from disempowerment, like where I felt like the shame, to feeling now like a sense of empowerment, like what I can offer, what I can do. And it's up to me the entire time. And you you use this word, it jumps out at me every time. We have a choice, like we can't control the fact um, we can't control our brothers' choices, we can't control that that ball, the angle of that ball, but we can choose our response, and it's not um instantaneously easy, but like working through the hard stuff, I I believe is a choice. And yeah, it it took me a long time to to realize that no matter what life throws at me, my response is a choice.
SPEAKER_04:So and tapping into the strengths, the original strengths that you had early on.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And I mean, there's a reason why I because I really, like I said earlier, I didn't think life when I found out that vision wasn't coming back, I couldn't do the things, I couldn't drive that Subaru, I would never be able to ski again. Like I used to have the mountain bike on one side of the roof, the road bike on the other, skis in the back, snowshoes, like anything was in my car to just play in the mountains. And now I couldn't drive that car. They took away my driver's license, they took away my German residency because it was dependent on my job in Germany, which they took away because I was not cognitively capable. And so all of these things were taken away. There's some things like I could not control any of that, but I could control my response.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:And my response at first was anger, and I think it's important like to speak to that because all our emotions, like they're valid, like no one can tell me how I'm supposed to feel. And and I touched on this earlier, just the role of empathy, like trying to imagine, well, what would what you do, but also at the same time, a point in my life where I don't have, I should, should not, uh, I'm very careful of the word should, um be well be drawn to others' expectations.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. And compassion and self-compassion can't exist in the same space as shame. So it sounds like to me at some point, whether unconsciously or consciously, you stepped into uh compassion for self to understand that what you'd been through is very traumatic. Maybe at the time it didn't feel there was any self-compassion, but I would venture to guess that there had to be some self-compassion there that because again, shame and and self-compassion can't exist in the same space, right?
SPEAKER_01:We're an eight round, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, I th and I think that compassion for myself still like there's a lot of a lot of growth still possible.
SPEAKER_05:For sure.
SPEAKER_01:And all of us, but self-compassion is still hard for me, like and and as is letting go, like letting go of some things that I can't do anymore. Um trying to like just I think I'm more aware, awareness is key, but like not letting myself get focused on the frustration, and I think actually part of the frustration of late has been I've been living overseas the last five years in Nepal, living very simply in the mountains, and then now life has played out in a way that I'm in Alberta and I'm so thankful to be here. Yet not having the privilege of driving has resurfaced because in Nepal you would I would have never never missed it. Like everything I was doing was on foot and away from like the need, away from a need to drive a vehicle. But coming back here, um, that's definitely resurfaced because I feel in Canada there's just an expectation that if you're above the age of 16, you have a driver's license and can get around with ease. And yeah, I I still trust struggle with that. And when I get frustrated, um, there's definitely little room left for compassion for myself. Um, but I'm continuing to work on it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, for sure. And when and I think it's a lifelong pursuit, whether we've been impacted by trauma, you know, they call it big T trauma, little T trauma. We all experience a lot of little Ts, uh little T traumas, but big T traumas, a lot of people will eventually face a big T trauma in their life. But you know, going back to your mantra on your webpage, lost sight, yet gaining vision. So, you know, talk about you mentioned it before, but talk about how that life philosophy uh continues to drive you forward.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think it comes back to, I'm not sure if this is was before we started recording, just talking about the lessons um that have come from traumatic brain injury, like and that shift of perspective where yeah, I've I've lost a lot, um both physically and then just with respect to the the wake of losing my eyesight. So though I've lost my sight vision with respect to like my outlook on the on the world and on the future, I've gained new perspective. I've gained the ability to embrace impermanence, um, which I'm not sure if we'll get a chance to come to that, but just my relationship with, I guess, a sense of spirituality and and meditation that I do with with respect to vipassana, which accepting things as they are.
SPEAKER_04:Um well go ahead with go go ahead with it. You can talk about that now because the the idea of impermanence is something that again is when we can grasp impermanence, uh we gain greater acceptance. You know, and that's one of the the keys. Yeah, you're showing me your the tattoo.
SPEAKER_01:I'm showing you my tattoo, um, which is poly um for it's it's actually pronounced anitia, but in English it means impermanence. Um, and that's just a little reminder of on those dark days or on the even the best of days, like when things are going fabulous. I I still need to remember like it's not going to be like this forever. Just try to stay equanimous, like not too excited, not too low, but this is the way it is. Um, and that nothing stays the same forever. Like in an instance, yes, my my eyesight, my life changed. And with that, I was stuck. And I didn't believe life with a air quotes disability was worth fighting for. Um, but with time and impermanence come has come this movement towards acceptance and that shift from the initial shock and disbelief to and not wanting to get better because I had this label or all these labels, and they had given me three days to live. Like, if if I was unplugged from the machines that were giving me the medication, that were giving me the food, nutrition, they said I'd be dead with within three days. And I didn't want those three days. Like I truly believed that life was no longer, like, it wasn't worth all of this, what I would call fake nutrition and and these machines keeping me alive because I couldn't, I was never going to be able to do the things that I used to be able to do. Never would I ever have believed that I was actually going through this to find and discover my purpose and find ways that I can actually help other people. Because, like you said earlier, it might not be brain injury or an eating disorder, suicide, health. Everyone has their own mountains. And, you know, whether it be people working through all the effects of like the the wake of COVID, of job loss, of relationship issues, like just trying to come back to that embracing impermanence and that it's not going to be like this forever. Um, sorry, keep going or going on.
SPEAKER_04:No, I was just gonna say it's so important for people to understand that because if you were to go back to your 15-year-old self or you know, 22-year-old self, would you ever imagine that you've accomplished the things you have?
SPEAKER_01:Not a chance.
SPEAKER_04:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Not a chance. And when I said earlier about like the way the accident happened, like this kind of stuff only happens in the movies. But the choices that I have made as a result have led me from literally death's doorstep, like the darkest crevasse, to now having climbed some of the world's most pristine peaks. And with that come opportunity to share my story of the of those choices that have led me through the darkness towards towards brighter days and absolutely um how I work through them when they aren't, when they still are, when that darkness resurfaces.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. What was your first when you go back to recovery and then understanding the the beginnings of purpose insight now, you know, in your mind's eye? What was your first real? I don't want to say success, you know what I mean? Like, what was your the first achievement that led you to believe that again start to push the goalposts again? So, what was your first achievement after your injury?
SPEAKER_01:Uh, it was a long time. Um, but I believe that standing on the top of Manisloo, which is the world's eighth highest mountain, it was the first, the highest climb I had done. And I just remember thinking, I am gonna be okay. Like, not because I climbed that high, am I suddenly I'm enough, but that there are still things I can do despite all of the losses. And then choosing to continue climbing after that. Like initially, I had thought climbing this was like a one-time thing that I'm just gonna climb this mountain because I've run around it, it's in my backyard, it's not too technical. Um, based on my experience, it seems to be a good one to start with. But I stood on top of it and I just remember thinking, when does the hard part start? Because in comparison to traumatic brain injury, yeah, climbing a mountain is no challenge at all.
SPEAKER_04:So back up there, because we we went from uh the injury to yeah, yeah, climbing that mountain, which was what 25,000 feet or something, 26,000 feet?
SPEAKER_01:It's about 8,500 meters.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so that's more than double more than double Mount Fuji.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, 8,163, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, so when you when you think about that, 27,000 feet. That was a huge, huge achievement. But how did you take the first step up the mountain? What was that like? Yeah, to have because on your website it says purpose amid peaks. That idea of fear, grappling with fear. But what was the the first step you took to actually say, okay, I'm gonna start climbing, I'm gonna start running again.
SPEAKER_01:That's a really great segue because at the top of that mountain, not only was I saying, like, when that's the hard part, but I just I wanted my brother to be there. I wanted the nurses, the doctors, the CNAs, the therapists, the hundreds of hands and hearts, they're the ones that got me to take that first step. They're the ones that got me to the top of that mountain. Because, like I said, I thought life wasn't worth living. Like I was pulling out those tubes, I was cutting myself, taking like trying to take too many of the pills that I wasn't anyway. Like there was just so much, like I wanted to end my life. Only did I stand on that mountain because those people didn't give up on me when I truly gave up on myself. When after 26 months between seven hospitals in three countries trying to get the right care for the brain injury, for the vision loss, for the eating disorder, all of the things. So it was 26 months, and I was literally taken from the last treatment center in Denver, and I was brought by an Uber to an airport. And I like there was this dichotomy, like huge relief, because for like finally I'm free, but at the same time, I couldn't, I didn't have an opportunity, I didn't have the privilege of living in Germany anymore. I had given up my Canadian residency because it didn't make sense to pay taxes still in Canada when I was, I thought I was never gonna live here again. I was living in all these other countries, living my best life, everything was great. Um, I had so I had a Canadian passport, but I didn't have residency. So coming to the airport, it was like just so many mixed feelings. Like now what? Like I literally had no one. I mean, I have my my parents, my brother and sister, they're back in Ontario, but I had been living overseas my entire life, like my entire adult life, and I just felt so lost. And with a little bit of time and working through some bureaucracy with respect to getting things out of Germany, like bank accounts and insurance and that kind of thing, the only sign that I could see was towards mountains. And the reason I wanted to be in mountains, like in addition to the fact that that's sort of where I feel I thrive, um, I'm at my best when I'm with Mother Nature, but I wanted to be away from society because now, despite everything I know and believe, that everything that we truly need is within us, and our appearance has nothing to do with anything. Um, I feel that because I look different, especially at the time, like far more, I've accepted a little bit more now, but that's still an area for growth. But society tells us who we should be, what we should be doing, how we should look. And I just felt like I wanted to be away from it all. So if I spent a year uh in mountains, that then maybe with the serenity and solace just among um big massives that perhaps I'd have life figured out one year, and that was in 2017, and here I am still trying to figure things out. So, what I did, Andy, I mapped out and I'm drawing if I know your audience can't see me, but uh basically 13 mountain ranges around the world where I would have trails to walk, wander alone with Mother Nature, and avoid snow. I planned it out because I could not imagine with my limited eyesight and lack of depth perception that I would ever actually be able to navigate in snow again. So in Europe and then India, Nepal, uh New Zealand, through South America, back to Colorado to thank those doctors and all of the nurses and therapists who helped save my life, and then back to Europe. And that year, when I came through Nepal, something about the Himalayas was calling me back. I just knew that I wanted to come back. And in fact, while I was there, I ended up extending my stay because life happened and got connected with the local trail running scene. And within 10 months of having come out of hospital, I ended up racing my first ultra marathon, the Annapurna 100, which was a little bit of a fairy tale chapter, I think. Um never ever. I just thought when when a friend said, just sign up, like just sign up and you can see what happens. And then I did, and I thought, well, that's a win. And if I get myself to the start line, there's another win. Anyway, my biggest fear, I mean, I hadn't done the proper training. I'd been spending time on foot at altitude. So um, you know, I wasn't following a training plan by any means, but I was definitely exposing myself to the right conditions um and had plenty of time on foot. But um, the race went like I just found strength that I never ever could have imagined. And again, that comes back to what I've been through with my brain injury. Like um, I remember the last climb was 700 meters of like these ancient, like rock stone stairs, and it was pouring rain. And I just I think the I mean, my smile ignites just imagining my smile, like after 50k, like I'm so excited because I'm actually gonna finish this thing. And I finished well enough that I caught the director's uh race director's attention. He's like, What are you doing here? And so I explained a little bit, and he's like, Whoa, uh, you should stick around. We have this race around Manisloo. And at the time, I didn't even know what Manisloo was, never even heard of it. I wasn't a mountaineer by any means. And I'm like, sorry, I've got a trip to like my ticket to New Zealand like in three days or something like that. I went to bed that night and I'm like, Of course you do. Like, I changed my ticket and I stayed, and that was one of the best decisions or the most impactful decisions, I guess, I've ever made. I stayed in Nepal and did the Manasloo Mountain Trail race. So it's a stage race. Um, I think it turns out to be just around or just a little less than 200 kilometers.
unknown:Jesus.
SPEAKER_01:And um lots of elevation. I I don't even want to say the numbers, but a lot. And but that's where like climbing, like I with my depth perception, going uphill is like, and and just I think part of my training growing up. Like I always liked going uphill. Biking, running, skiing uphill was my strong point. So after that, I um a very close friend now, um, who actually won the race, Mayo. Um, he's an Australian trailrunner who Trail Run magazine invited to share his story. Like he was the winner of this Himalayan mountain race. And he said to them, No, you need to hear Jill's story. Hers is way more impressive than mine. And that was the first time I was like, if I I kind of missed the part there, but during each stage of the race, like my headlamp, five o'clock in the morning in these tea houses, completely by myself, I'd be journaling. And he kept, he would see me, but he his polite curiosity, not in a nosy or um intrusive way, but just like, hey Jill, like what's going on? Kind of like you're hiding, like, is there anything you want to share? But he approached me in such a way that um I opened up just a little bit so he knew a little bit of what I was working through, in addition to working to getting my arse around the trail. Um, and he found something in my story that he felt was worth sharing more than the fact that he was just standing on the podium. And so what they did, they combined my story and his into this beautiful, like they weaved it together like um like a beautiful quilt, uh, and shared our stories. And from that time, um, I think that helped me just begin to start to realize, okay, I hadn't started a website, maybe I shall um help other people by sharing and opening up a little bit.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:So I started the website and then more opportunities came up to um to share a little bit more through through magazine articles, through um, through other podcasts. And and with time, yeah, I've realized that you know, I hear from strangers who the power, this is where I mentioned earlier, the power of social media. I choose to use it in a way that can help others. And so if I hear from a drug addict I've never met before, but who heard my story through um another someone saw on social media, you know, just the the the domino effect, or uh like a woman's been reaching out to me, she's working through cancer in Spain, like I never would have met her before. Um, and so, you know, just staying connected to my values, uh, and including that of communication, but also authenticity and val and vulnerability humor. I try to try to keep things light, but also be realistic and and sharing my story. Long answer. Um that first after that first year, ended up coming back to Nepal and spent the last print basically from 2018 until 2023 there. The higher I would run, the more my trails would connect with climbers. And they were as intrigued with me. Like, who is this woman running by herself in the middle of nowhere, a little backpack? Um, and but I was just as intrigued with them, like Sherpa are only people that we read about, you know, in climbing magazines or see in the Everest movies. And these people have become some of my closest friends. And the reasons why I found climbing. So moving from running over like 4,000 meters, and I say running lightly, when you're at 4,000, 5,000 meters, I'm moving pretty darn slow. Friends live like literally in the shadows of Everest. They're inviting me to like try a 5,000 meter peak. So working right in Kathmandu with um like getting to learn more about ropes and anchors and systems like that safety um with local friends was has just been excuse me, an experience again that I never would have ever had um had I not got hit in the head with a hardball.
SPEAKER_04:Well, you know what's what's amazing is you know, when I think of when you were at the airport in Colorado and and what's next, and you're not sure, and you're thinking about it, you know, what might be next for you, and grappling with all these things, then then returning to your essence, which is the outdoors, really, and making that choice. So we go back to choices, and then this leads you on a path literally around the world. You know, you mentioned some of the countries, New Zealand and then South America, and then circling back to Colorado as an act of gratitude to the people who supported you. You're uh almost full circle back to self, but a changed person, and then definitely deciding more mountains and then ending up where you were in uh Nepal, right? And then starting to run there. You know, what I want to emphasize here is part of healing is uh openness to experience. And I talked about this, I told you about the podcast I did with Amadu Ba, the basketball player from University of Michigan. And we talked about that idea of like gratitude for others for sure, but also this openness to experience, which is uh part of the big five personality trait framework. So there's five traits and one of them is openness to experience, and that when we embrace openness to experience, we literally uh uh increase it's like compound interest, we increase the number of doors that will open to us, which means we increase the number of connections, human connections that will change our life. And it sounds like in your journey, you you call it getting away from society to only find humanity through the process.
SPEAKER_01:I like the way you put that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. And I think that for you getting away from it all might have felt like escaping everything that wasn't serving you at the time. But I think it was necessary to further find yourself to do the internal work needed in the time and space. Alone to uh figure out yourself uh better on a deeper level. And with that came the motivation to keep pushing the goalposts as you described before. And then by pushing the goalposts, you only exposed yourself to more people. So maybe it wasn't that you were trying to avoid people, maybe it was like an unconscious choice to double down on internal self at the time. But then that led to doors cracking wide open and your heart cracking wide open to human connection and finding people that believed in you, that were inspired by you, and then being open to that experience and embracing it rather than repelling it, right? So, how does that resonate?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I really like the way you put that. No one's ever put it in such an articulate way that it's almost what I'm hearing you say is unconsciously, like I moved away from society, but it's give gifted me the opportunity to connect with humanity in a in a way that um I guess it evolved somewhat naturally through the choices that I made.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and also the internal work, you know, giving yourself the time and space and freedom to explore self and as we said, renegotiate purpose and to find deeper meaning in your story that ultimately uh was an important part, I I would say a critical part, a necessary part of your journey. And then, you know, meeting those people who inspired you, but equally they were inspired.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Yeah, I uh it's it's neat to hear you say that because I still sometimes struggle with um are people is my story, is it really worth sharing? And but just little glimmers, you know, throughout I'm not saying every day, but little glimmers here and there when when I realize the impact or the wake of my sharing that that that I really I guess just embraced that the value of of vulnerability and something that for so long I didn't think was I didn't have the courage to be seen. I just wanted to to hide. Um but the connections that I have made through being vulnerable. I guess that has has led to me finding my purpose.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and that again going back to people listening to this who are going through difficulty, there are things that you can do, and the internal work is a huge part of that, and you um taking on the pasna meditation and embracing impermanence is all part of the internal uh work needed to deepen self-awareness, to sit with difficult emotions and to redesign the narrative to be more empowering and supportive through a loving, kind, compassionate voice, inner voice.
SPEAKER_01:Uh that really resonates. I feel actually Sonia will connect, or I connect Sonia to this part. Um, but in hospital, friends would come and I still have like little sticky notes, Jill seeing this doctor, or Jill's headache was a nine out of ten, or she vomited this many times. That evolved into somewhat of a dependency. Like I couldn't remember things, I was confused, but I would um become like that was like I would help me know what was going on. That evolved into a journal where every every day, I will say this generally, every day since that accident, um, I have journaled. And okay, let's say 90% of the days given the fact that I've been in places where it's really hard to write and and life happens. But um journaling, like just with respect to self-awareness and wanting to get better, because for so long I didn't want to get better, I didn't see how life could get better, but now making choices, especially like working through hard times, working through darkness, which I have been with with more of a recent accident. Um, but those tools, like having a toolbox, I cannot recommend enough. Before my accident, I would have been like, oh yeah, okay. Like if I heard it at a conference or something like that, it was like, yeah, I should journal or I should do this or I should meditate. But now, like knowing how much my mental health is dependent on my physical health, and when I'm not able, and I and I believe that you can really connect to this, Andy, when when life happens in a way that we can't just go for a run anymore. Um, what do I do? Because my coping mechanism before 2014 was get on that bike, like one to like literally 150 kilometers, or go for a run, like for four hours. Like that was what I would turn to. All of my outlets were physical. And suddenly life played out in a way where I didn't have that option or those opportunities, those privileges. And now, like working through this broken leg and ankle, I've really had to um renegotiate, like re-re consider and get back to that toolbox. Um, I'm I don't say this very often, and as soon as the word comes in my mind, I'm like, whoa, Jill, um like I'm proud of those choices that I have made where I know I need to journal. And now it's just become practice. Like I do not connect to the world wide web, no phones, no internet, nothing until after I have stretched. So I did do a little yoga, like a 10 minutes, sometimes like 10-15 minutes of stretching, a meditation sit, which is about 20 minutes, and then I journal. And that is all before I'm connected to anything outside of my living room. Like that's just connecting with myself. And I need to make that time. I just feel that like setting myself up for the day, and no matter what I'm working through, if I if for some reason there's a glitch in the system and that doesn't happen, the chances of me being off-center are a whole lot more likely than like tapping it starting that day with the toolbox, the journaling, the stretching, the meditation, because I know, yeah, I'm gonna be a better person and show up better for my friends, my family, the people in my community better if I'm spending the time to work on myself.
SPEAKER_04:Well, what comes up for me is that and I don't want to get all neuroscience-y, but I've been very interested over the last few years. I did a coaching certification in the neuroscience of optimal flow. And what it talks about is the power of journal writing is not just journal writing, but what you're doing is uh decluttering the unconscious.
SPEAKER_06:So that's a great way to put it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so you're taking a lot of um maybe thoughts that are trapped in the head, um but just releasing those thoughts on paper through free write, however, you journal is a way to declutter the unconscious, which has been proven to optimize recovery, you know, uh sleep better, but set yourself up for success and to know what you're going after. People talk about the the power of goal setting, we all know it. When we're intentional and deliberate about writing our goals down, if even at a micro level, then we know what we're going after. So we're actually tapping into our neurochemistry and getting our neurochemicals to work for us. And that's an important part of the process with people need to understand the journal writing, there's so much more to it. And yeah, it sounds like that daily practice you have gives you inner strength, gives you clarity, declutters your unconscious, and then allows you to start the day as your best self. And then you may not make the best choices during the day, but then through journal writing, you reflect on the choices. Yeah, you reprioritize your goals. Maybe the goal was too big, maybe it wasn't a priority, you know. But you end up reflecting and continuing to redesign. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, read actually that's a really great word, redesign. What and what I've recently, well, maybe a year now, redesigned my journal where before it was just completely open-ended, but now I have it a little bit structured where the first is just like get everything out, that declutter. Um, but then also every day, and sometimes this can be hard. Five things I'm thankful for, like just the gratitude practice. And if it's difficult, I'm probably overthinking because I have so much to be thankful for at this desk right now. I have a light, I have a computer, I have a human connection, I have water, I have heat and electricity. But I try to every day, like because sometimes in our darkness, it's like, what do I have? Like nothing is good. Yes, there is good. Like we choose that. Um, so including a gratitude practice daily in my journaling, as well as a blueprint, you use the word goals, but I since life changed in a fraction of a s a second and my life didn't go quite as planned, uh, I always use the word blueprint because I feel like with a pencil, we can erase it, we can adjust it, modify it as need be. So each day I uh after I declutter, I make notes of gratitude, and then I have a blueprint for the day, basically mini goals, micro goals, what I hope to get done. And then uh two things at the end, maybe something that I'm I fear like what might get in the way of this today, including like what's happening mentally. Um and or anything that I might like if I try not to entertain the word resentment, but making note, like, is anything coming up that I'm feeling like as an obstacle? And then like what am I looking forward to? So try to a little bit of structure, but I don't tie myself, like I don't bound myself to it. And I think one uh other thing that came up listening to you, Andy, was that sometimes like that is in my morning practice, but and at nighttime it's always a stretch um before bed and like no no phone connection after that or before that till I go to bed, but also sometimes the clutter happens in the day, and I know I'm gonna sleep better if I journal before bed too. I just try to get it out um instead of it stirring as I stare at the ceiling.
SPEAKER_04:Well, they're there again, it's decluttering the unconscious to optimize sleep. And you know, as we segue toward an end, I want to share two quotes with you. And the one quote that really resonates with me is from Mother Teresa, and what she says is if each of us would only sweep our own doorstep, the whole world would be clean. Okay, and that's that idea of like take care of our own internal house first. And if we all do that, everybody will be better, the world will be better.
SPEAKER_01:I like that analogy, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and the second quote is the cave we fear to enter holds the treasure we seek, right?
SPEAKER_01:Oh my goodness. I have I have a list of mantras. Um, and that is this I wrote the night before that trail race. Um, it's on here somewhere. Oh, right here.
SPEAKER_04:There it is.
SPEAKER_01:The cave I fear holds the treasure I seek.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely. There it is.
SPEAKER_01:But there's I like I said, I don't have very many things. Um, but this would have been like from a journal-ish. But it was mantras going into that race. Stars can't shine without darkness. I've come too far to only come this far. It may be stormy, but rain never lasts forever. All kinds of gems.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, little little bits of inspiration, you know, and that's why quotes always drive me and the work that I do and in my personal and and professional life. But as we kind of segue to a close, I want people to hear about the book you're writing and just give people a snippet into that and and what you want them to know.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you. I'm that will help put a little bit of pressure, is not the right word. Um, so I'm trying to write a book again, coming back to the value of vulnerability and what I feel is my purpose and sharing my story from that dark crevasse to to where I am now and the choices along the way. I feel that um the journals that I have, so I I'm working it's it'll be a memoir. So basically, from the time of the accident um in in Bavaria to where I am now in Canmore and the choices that I have made that allowed me to find purpose, but also from um finding my way and and light on my trail, though it didn't, uh life didn't go the way I anticipated, it's turned out um in a way that I feel is so much better and more impactful. Um, from we didn't touch on it much, but climbing seven of the world's highest mountains that I really believe um I never would have found this strength for um had I not had a brain injury. And then choosing to walk away from that project because the way I feel 8,000 meter climbing has turned so commercial and chasing for records and racing, that's not the reason I chose mountains. I, as I mentioned earlier, just turning to Mother Nature for solace and serenity and just the way that scene has evolved. Um, I never went to mountains to be part of like to to for accolades or to be the first Canadian or the first female. Um, so I just found that those mountains were getting much busier and um not an environment that uh I was at my best in or wanted to be in. So choosing to walk away from that, that'll be part of the book as well. I I have all the content, I have about 47 journals, like literally paper and pencil from the time of the accident. So hoping to get that through while at the same time trying to be compassionate with myself. Um knowing that the last year has been really hard. I broke my tibia phibia, I shattered my ankle, 29 screws, four plates, somebody else's bone. I lost my best friend in an avalanche. So it's been again, uh life changes quick, but it's prepared me to to work through hard stuff. So I climb on.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, that's beautiful, Jill. And and I really I'll I'll stay in touch with you. And when the book comes out, we'll do another interview.
SPEAKER_01:That would be amazing and help promote the book.
SPEAKER_04:But thank you. Yeah, your story is amazing. We could we could talk on for hours because I find so much inspiration and in your story and in your life. And I'm so glad that Sonia, big shout out to Sonia Taberg for bringing together. She's brilliant herself and the work she does, and she's so creative, she's one of the most creative people I know.
SPEAKER_01:Um if you see her before me, give her a great big hug and tell her I love her 5,000. She'll know what you mean.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I will for sure. But for the listeners, where can they find you?
SPEAKER_01:Um, they can find me. Well, if they're around Canmore, Alberta. Um, but more literally, Mountains of my mind is my website. So it's obviously all one word, Mountains of my mind. And then Instagram is the short version of that. It's just MTNS. Short one mountains of my mind. And then Jill Wheatley on YouTube. I've been trying to put a little bit more on there. Uh LinkedIn, a little bit of X. I don't go in there too much, but all the links are from the website and my email's there. I'm happy if anyone wants to reach out, share stories, or happy to be connected. Yeah, happy to help.
SPEAKER_04:Awesome, Joe. Yeah, thank you so much for your time today. And uh I will do your links in the show notes. So I really do hope that uh people reach out to you. But yeah, thanks so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much, and everybody, thank you for listening to this episode with Joe Weekly.
SPEAKER_02:I hope you can actually have a lot of people.