Run Your Life Show With Andy Vasily
Run Your Life Show With Andy Vasily
#287- True to Yourself: Authenticity and Growth in Leadership with Nancy Lhoest-Squicciarini
In this inspiring episode, Andy Vasily sits down with renowned educator and global strategic leader Nancy Lhoest-Squicciarini for a heartfelt and insightful conversation about what it truly means to lead with authenticity, connection, and purpose. Drawing on decades of experience in international education and leadership development, Nancy shares powerful stories and practical frameworks that illuminate the profound impact of small, intentional moments—what she calls “lollipop moments”—in shaping positive culture and empowering others.
Key topics discussed include:
- The power of small acts of kindness and encouragement in leadership
- Building trust and psychological safety within teams
- The importance of feedback, follow-through, and elevating all voices
- Authenticity, vulnerability, and self-compassion as cornerstones of effective leadership
- Strategies for meaningful facilitation and inclusive meeting design
- Nancy’s work in supporting women in education and developing middle leadership capacity
Why You Should Listen:
This episode is a must-listen for anyone who wants to make a real difference in their organization or community. Nancy’s wisdom goes beyond theory—she offers actionable advice, relatable stories, and a refreshing perspective on leadership that is both human and practical. Whether you’re a school leader, teacher, coach, or aspiring changemaker, you’ll walk away with new tools, inspiration, and a deeper understanding of how to lead with heart, elevate others, and create lasting positive impact.
Key Takeaway Value:
Listeners will discover the transformative power of authentic leadership rooted in connection, trust, and intentionality. Nancy’s insights will encourage you to embrace vulnerability, act with purpose, and recognize the ripple effect of your everyday actions—reminding us all that the smallest moments can have the biggest impact.
Connect with Nancy:
I love the idea of you focus on your human beings before your human actions.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You know, and that takes intentionality. It's not just walking into the staff room, bringing cupcakes. It's how are you intentionally building that psychological safety, you know, making it explicit, gathering feedback, how do you promote innovation? How do you embrace cognitive conflict? So if you have a staff that knows that you're willing to listen to different ideas, you're already promoting the idea that you validate who they are, their perspectives. You're listening to the Brilliant Life Podcast with host Andy Vassily.
SPEAKER_00:If you're a returning listener, I want to thank you for being a part of the conversations that I've had on this podcast for more than 10 years now. It really means a lot to me that you take the time to listen to every episode that you can. And if you're a new listener, thanks for taking a chance on this podcast. I really do appreciate it. This is a nonprofit endeavor and one that I've deeply committed myself to. And I hope that after the conversation you're about to hear, you come back to listen to future episodes and also share these conversations on my podcast with anyone who you feel will benefit from tuning in. As for today's show, I feel very honored and privileged to have interviewed a true legend in the field of leadership and education. Her name is Nancy Scorini, and she's originally from New York, but has lived and worked in Luxembourg for more than 30 years now. Although Nancy and I speak specifically about leadership and education and how to lead school organizations with clarity, purpose, and intentionality, if you are not in education, I guarantee you'll still find takeaway value in this discussion. Everything Nancy embodies and embraces as a leader applies across multiple disciplines and fields of work. Her leadership style is one of human-centeredness, connection, humility, vulnerability, and being intentional and purposeful in moving organizations forward in impactful, meaningful ways. And it's important to remember that being human-centered doesn't mean sacrificing organizational values. And it certainly doesn't mean being soft or caving into everyone's demands placed on leaders. This conversation accentuates the precision of purpose and clarity, as well as accountability, and holding each other to the highest standards possible by creating environments where everyone has a voice within the process of self-improvement, organizational excellence, and truly supporting one another to achieve our best. In our conversation, Nancy and I talk about the essential conditions needed to build authentic trust and ownership of our own actions. She emphasizes that leadership and teaching are often defined by lollipop moments, which are small, often unnoticed acts of kindness or encouragement that can have a profound impact on organizational culture. Leaders should strive to create these moments intentionally. So I want you to now listen in on a clip of what she shares. Nancy and I also talk about the importance of recognizing that making mistakes is a natural part of leadership. But what truly matters is the intent behind our actions. Nancy's reflections remind us that approaching every situation with a genuine desire to do good not only lessens the burden of guilt when things go wrong, but also fosters growth, resilience, and self-compassion. This perspective encourages leaders to be kinder to themselves, to learn from their experiences, and to lead with both humility and integrity. Lastly, we also cover the importance of encouraging leaders to be true to themselves and to embrace their humanity. Nancy highlights that genuine connection and trust are built when we allow others to see our real selves, even our imperfections. This approach not only strengthens relationships within teams, but also creates a culture where everyone feels safe to contribute, to take risks, and to grow together.
SPEAKER_03:For new leaders, just be true to yourself. Know who you are, keep the pillar of humanity that you have and be authentic. Don't try to be somebody else. Just be yourself. And I tell so many new leaders that and just show that vulnerability. You know, Breen Brown's work, show that vulnerability. You will get more connection of showing that vulnerability than not showing your true self.
SPEAKER_00:We need more leaders like Nancy. I hope you learn from her. And as you listen to this conversation, I highly encourage you to connect with her. You can find all her information in the show notes of this episode. It was a genuine joy and privilege for me to have this conversation with Nancy. And with that, let's now jump into my conversation with the legend and inspiration, Nancy Scorini. Well, virtually, that we're actually having a discussion and that we've actually met. I've followed your work for years. You're doing amazing things. We know a lot of the same people. And uh, when I told people that I was interviewing you, I received so many comments, private messages saying that you're an amazing human and you've been so impactful in your work. And and I sense that over the years just in your thoughtful posts and what people are are sharing about the impact that you've had. So, in advance to our conversation, I really want to thank you for the time and energy and your willingness to come on the podcast.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I feel so privileged that we're finally meeting virtually and we're so close to one another. So eventually we need to see each other face to face because we're so close. But I feel really privileged. And I had the same response when people said that I was going on your podcast, like, you're finally meeting Andy. I'm like, yes, I'm doing it. So it was a real thrill, I think a mutual, reciprocal in a way.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's awesome. So okay, well, let's start with giving the listeners some context into who you are, where you're from, like, you know, where you grew up and any early life experiences that you feel really shaped your character and and the core values that drive you both personally and professionally.
SPEAKER_03:Uh, originally a New Yorker, I know that I lost my accent, so it's gone. When I go back to New York, people say I lost the accent. Then once I come back to Luxembourg, they're like, you're such a New Yorker. Um, pretty typical, nothing, you know. Um grew up in Brooklyn, New York, and then went to a uh Catholic school. So very different than moving to suddenly to a public school. Eventually moved, we moved out to Long Island, Massapequa. Very famous for many different things, but I just loved having my high school there. Um and then decided very early. I knew I was going into education. I know everyone says that, but I just met my teachers were amazing individuals. And I know this sounds odd, but I was actually an introvert in school. I was very quiet, um, had difficulty. I don't know, I just wasn't a person that someone would say, oh, she is the person in the class where she's going to volunteer. I really lacked that confidence. I don't know. And I just had these one teacher, her name was Lana Gluck, and she did the reverse commute. She was a person who lived in Manhattan who commuted to Long Island. So in the 70s, she was already wearing leather. But she was really cool. She had this jewelry. And she, I'm gonna use the word impact, right? She impacted me. She saw something in me. After school, she would teach me needlepoint just to start getting me to talk and just so I think from those little experiences I've had with different teachers, they were the ones that I would want to continue making those moments for individuals because I felt that what it did for me as an individual and as a girl who was, you know, I loved sport, but was still a little bit shy. And eventually for someone to notice me and say one or two words made such a difference to me. And I thought it was almost like you felt validated in in New York, you know, in schools, in the Catholic school, there was 50 kids in a classroom in nailed down desks, like what you see. And then to go to uh Master Picua, it was more like 25 in a class, but there's still a larger class. So to have someone just see you, even though you're not the most vocal, I felt that was what I wanted to do. And I would say that would be my inspiration of why I went into teaching and grade six. My sixth grade teacher, Atlanta Gluck, she was sixth grade, and I taught sixth grade for 19 years. I feel like it was big. So I have nothing like really exciting or like or something uh very different. It's just those moments that people make with you. Um, there's a great, I don't know if you know the TED Talk. Um uh what is it by Drew Dudley, Lollipop Moments.
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, it's a great TED talk. So he talks about the idea that small, almost forgotten moments that you might have made have a positive impact on others that you're not even aware of. And he gave a story about he was in front of it, it was a TED talk. He was in front of uh a university for a charity, and they were giving lollipops for those to really promote the charity. And then there was a girl and guy together, and it was a first day of university. And if I say this correctly, he told this guy, give this girl a lollipop. And she was really scared, they were scared, and it ended up that lollipop moment is what connected those two individuals. So that small act of kindness actually had a ripple effect. So I think of that when I consider leadership. What words do you make in the hallway? What words do you say in terms of encouragement or saying to someone, do you know what? Nancy, I think you should uh start the staff meeting today with uh a tip about best practice. Those moments you might think as a leader might have not made an impact on an individual, but you don't realize it was a lollipop moment. You actually made a positive effect on that individual. It's a great TED talk. It's uh Drew Dudley. I use it all the time when I work with leaders just to say, how are you making lollipop moments with your staff? That intentional. Well, it's funny with the lollipop moment is not intentional, it's what you do in small moments because culture is built by the small moments of the day and the behaviors of the interaction and how those small moments actually build to a more positive culture, but the impact of each individual. So I just love it. So definitely anybody who wants to watch a great TED Talk or uses with your staff lollipop moments. What is it called? I think it's like leading with lollipops or something is the name of the TED Talk.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's beautiful and it rings a bell now. So now I'm feeling that you shared the story that I've I have seen it in the past. And I think I might have even looked up Drew Dudley, and I think he's from Toronto, maybe he's Canadian.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, but a lot comes up from me when you share that, you know, because teaching is uh teachers, educators have uh so much potential to impact the future, right? And there's a quote, um, I have some quotes here, and the quote is great is a small thing given at the right time. Right. And it's so true that we don't know the impact of our actions oftentimes till years later. And what comes up for me is your Lisa Glock is a Lena, Lana Glock, yeah. I had Dennis Millette, and he was my grade 10 history teacher. And I was very introverted and going through a lot of stuff in my life. Um, so school wasn't a priority for me, surviving was, you know. And Dennis definitely saw me and he connected with me, and my parents divorced, and and I was able to talk to him about some of the things that I was going through. And that led to playing a lot of golf with him uh on weekends and holidays, and uh he'd pick me up and bring me to school because it was a 25-minute walk and he was just so genuine. And after high school, you know, I wasn't able to talk to him for years. And then when I had my two boys, they were like two and four at the time, and we were visiting my hometown, and I saw him uh at the coffee shop, and I was just blown away. And I was like, Oh my god, Mr. Millet, I'm so sorry. I I don't even know how to reach you. And he met the boys, and then we stayed in touch. And what he said to me at that moment was he said to my wife, I've got a great story. He said, When your when your uh husband was 16 years old, there was a teacher of the year contest in the local radio show, and you had to write a letter explaining who you were nominating and what they meant to you. And Andy wrote a letter saying that I should be the teacher of the year and all of the reasons why, and he ended up winning it. And they wanted to do a big promo thing and come down to the school and uh, you know, do a big presentation in front of the all the students and staff, and he didn't want that. So he just said, I'll just take the certificate and the letter. And he said, It's still up on my wall. So full circle, 10 years later, um, it was two summers ago, and uh, we had spoken a few times over the years, and then I was back in my hometown, Windsor, Ontario, and I was thinking, I have to reach out to him, I have to reach out. And I called him, and it was the answering machine. And then I found out two days later that he passed away literally that week, and that his funeral was the next day. And of course, I get all emotional thinking I should have reached out to him, but I I know that he knew what he meant to me. Definitely went to the funeral with my sons, and uh at the luncheon afterwards, I just happened to be sitting with his family. I didn't know who they were, and they asked my connection, and I told them the story, and they said that letter's still up on the wall and certificate, and it meant so much to him. Please come by and collect it. So the next day I went to the apartment and they gave it to me.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, and you still have it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it's like full circle back.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and you know, to me that was a lollipop moment in both ways.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It's funny with Lana, I then started working in the school district that I went to and she became my my mentor. She was the person I was 22 years old, 23, starting out, new school district. Well, I went to the school district as a child, but it's different now, you're working in it. And she just became an invaluable, I I can't tell you, a person of reflection, a person that she wasn't giving advice. She always asked these questions, you know, that open mindset, trying to get me to develop my own capacity. Um, she went to my wedding. And then uh every time I go home, we just have lunch. Yeah, and now she's 80 something years old. Yeah, still dressing in leather.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, awesome.
SPEAKER_03:Love it. The jewelry, the nails, and I just love everything about her. I mean, there's something that I still admire about her, and now she's 80, I'm 61. And I had her when I was 11.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's amazing.
SPEAKER_03:So to me, that's what you hope. You want to bring back that when someone's talking, when a child is talking about their previous teachers, I hope that I'm the one that they have those positive memories of. Not that, oh, Miss S was nice, but it was more than that. It's not that superficial niceness, you know, it goes to the kindness, not niceness, the impact, the the memories they have of feeling validated. That to me is the joy of uh, you know, when you go work in a school that you can't, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for sure. And, you know, and this obviously uh connects deeply to who you are as a person. And and a quote that I pulled up from you is building strong relationships is the foundation of my leadership style. So, in a world where many leaders lead with authority and expertise first, what gave you the courage to lead with connection? And how was leading with your heart rather than your head, how has that changed you as a person?
SPEAKER_03:Or I I I don't know if it's my upbringing. I can't my family is a very warm family. Um, my mother is Puerto Rican, my dad is Italian. So you had loudness in the house, but there was this warmth and love. So I grew up very, I was very happy to have a childhood like that. I always saw that with connection, you can go further when it comes to any type of initiative. So I'm a real organized person. Like I'm I believe in like I have your questions all ready, and I love color coding. So when working within a school, I always knew I needed to have that connection, but I also need to have that accountability. So I always worked in the idea of building data points that was co-created. So when there was an issue, it wasn't about me or you not liking each other. It was about this was a co-created data point. It could be a protocol, it could be norms, it could be the implementation process of a new initiative. And if that's co-created, it takes out the emotion because we've already started this process together, deciding about the implementation phase. So when we do have a challenge, it's not as if I'm going or person thinks it's because I dislike the way you're navigating the situation. It's because this is what we decided on. But if we already have a sound foundation as just professionals, that conversation is more the idea of embracing that cognitive conflict rather than the affective conflict.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You know, so for me, the affective is what is demoralizing. It's when someone goes about your status, about your relationship, and who are as an individual. That type of conflict can absolutely destroy a culture of a school. I love cognitive conflict when it's about task or process. And because people that my colleagues knew I love that type of debate, they re knew that I, when you respect someone else's perspective, you're already building connections that you're saying. Tell me more about that. All right, I didn't see that. And I was really lucky in my job at the International School of Luxembourg, I was assistant principal responsible for teaching and learning. And I was responsible, which was absolutely a blessing for developing leadership capacity of all middle leaders for almost 10 years. So every other week I met with the upper school heads of departments, we call them academic leaders. And they knew I had my strengths, they also knew I had my weaknesses, and I knew they had their strengths when it came to their subject areas. So because we had that mutual respect, we had these disagreements, but it we had uh such a foundation of validating voice that we knew when we were differing in different and we were spirited, it was still based in trust and respect. And I think if you focus as a great uh facilitator, his name is Chad Littlefield. Love his YouTube the best. Love this guy. And he got an expression from his mentor, which is connection before content.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I absolutely live by that. And he promotes that, and he's a brilliant facilitator. He does he's not an educational facilitator, but he works with organizations and he just promotes the idea of I love the idea of you focus on your human beings before your human actions. You know, and that takes intentionality. It's not just walking into the staff room, bringing cupcakes, it's how are you intentionally building that uh psychological child safety, you know, making it explicit, gathering feedback, how do you promote innovation, how do you embrace cognitive conflict? So if you have a staff that knows that you're willing to listen to different ideas, you're already promoting the idea that you validate who they are, their perspectives. And I've had spirited conversations with my colleagues, spirited because I'm sometimes I'm not, but I adore the idea that they trust me enough to come to me to say, I disagree with how this is moving forward. Rather than talking behind my back in the parking lot. Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's that's huge what you're saying. And what comes up for me is uh, first of all, you said Chad Littlefield.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, I wrote the name down, so I'll check his work out after this uh conversation. What comes up for me is um the work around trust. And one of my mentors, Charles Feltman. Have you heard of Charles Feltman? Yeah. So he's been on the podcast four or five times, and he actually came here to Antwerp last year, and uh, we spent some time with him. My wife uh and I spent some time with him and his wife, and we did a live uh face-to-face uh podcast, which was great. But what Charles says is trust is choosing to risk making something you value vulnerable to another person's actions, right? And then Charles's work breaks down trust instead of you know, you screwed me over, I'm done with you, trust is gone. He has the four assessment domains of trust. So care, sincerity, reliability, competence. So then he helps people develop the language to be able to have a conversation around where trust was ruptured and make it about the assessment domain. So you might have somebody that's very caring and sincere, but they lack competence in certain areas, and that's where they're letting people down. So then the conversation just becomes around the competence piece and how that person can be supported to better develop the skills necessary to follow through on their work, right? So it absolutely builds psychological safety while at the same time addressing the ruptures in trust in proactive and empowering ways. You know, so how does that resonate with you?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, it's funny. I use a similar structure from Ken Blanchard. So he has the A, B, C, D's of trust. So trying to provide common vocabulary to have a common understanding when talking about why trust is broken. So it's very similar to what you mentioned. So he says, A, are you showing that you're able, you're competent? A. B, are you believable, your integrity? C, are you connected, showing that you care, you communicate? And D, are you dependable, honoring commitments?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And with those, this is very similar. And with those four pillars, that's the basis of a conversation that you have as to why trust has been broken. And it we really, because our schools are so multicultural, multi-you know, um, the experiences are so vast, that common vocabulary is the platform to gain that common understanding about why trust has been violated or just stretched or even harmed. And I use that with middle leaders when developing their leadership capacity, because for many middle leaders, they're starting off within the team that they were a member of, and many times they get promoted to become leading that team of a team they used to belong to. And we would share, but now my team is uh treating me differently. I said, because you're making them accountable. They trusted you as a colleague, are they trusting you as a leader? And using the ABC Desert Trust, very similar to what you stated, provides them a structure to talk about trust with their teams and not just them, the team trusting them, how do team members trust one another? And starting with that at the beginning of the school year of intentionality of trust and are always showing that we're able, believable, connected, and dependable.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's really important. Uh, to I'm glad that you gave that different perspective because the ABCD, I'm familiar with Ken Blanchard's work, but I didn't know the ABCD model. So that's very useful. And it's always good to map other frameworks onto the frameworks that you embrace because it expands your thinking, first of all. And I want to double-click on feedback. And, you know, I spoke about Wayne Quinville, a good friend of mine, and he's the head of elementary here, and he's a leader that really believes in the importance of feedback, and we've talked about it for years. And just this year, we actually wanted to double-click on some areas that we felt we needed to know more about. So I think it was collaboration, communication, and one other area. And we just asked the staff, you know, we really need your honest feedback here. You know, it's not enough for us to know that we have some issues, like most schools, around communication and collaboration. It's not enough for us to really uh get our hands on and understand. So we put up the three words and we said, it's really important that you're as honest as possible. Uh please let us know what we need to do more of or less of to build greater trust in these areas or more clarity, whatever it is. And then the teachers gave a lot of really uh not positive feedback, honest feedback.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And now we are able to take that feedback and then break it down into further categories.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And and now create some questions to dig even deeper, being more specific and intentional. And I think that act in itself allows the teachers to know that their voices are heard and valued, but we absolutely have to take action on it.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly. The worst is when you ask for feedback and then the teachers are wondering, so what's the actionables after this? Because I've already done three surveys and I've seen no impact of my voice. So now they won't even complete any more surveys. So what you are doing is actually validating the voice and then showing because of these comments and what you voice, these are the next actionables. We're moving forward. And that is, I would say, the the essential when asking for feedback with staff because they're the teachers are working all day and they fill out another survey and they're wondering, why am I even doing this? I filled out three surveys so far and this made no difference, or I didn't even see the results of the survey that from the first time I participated.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that's that's the thing. And we we both when we both made an agreement to remove personal, you know, and to to just look at it as information. And that's essential in the process because a lot of times leaders, and this is in my experience, will get hypersensitive and defensive when they're getting feedback, and then they start to say, Oh, I wonder who said that, and oh, that that's not true, and they make up excuses, so they immediately go into excuse mode and defensive mode, which shuts down any possible process process, exactly. Right. So in your experience, and and I can draw in many examples from the past where leaders do the you know once-a-year survey, and then as you just described, do nothing with it. So it's just a check the box thing, means nothing and erodes trust because there's no actionable plan and there's no vulnerability and sharing, and then they kind of go over the data and they paint a glossy picture and do this overall pitch. Oh, these are the areas that we're working on, right? But they that's it, you know. So, in your experience, how do you work with leaders to get them to remove the emotion? And that requires doing some internal work. And I've used this quote before Mother Teresa says uh, if each of us would just sweep our own doorstep, the world would be clean. So that starts with the internal work, right? As a metaphor. So take that in any direction that you want with maybe some practical. Examples or stories that you've experienced?
SPEAKER_03:Often I start with the concept of collaboration and how do they define collaboration? And I use Dr. Hargrave's work where he talks about the four quadrants of collaboration and for them to start understanding how do you what does collaboration look like at your school? So he has four quadrants of collaboration, and it's called the first one very, and he bases he defines collaboration of the level of trust and the level of, he calls it precision. That's but that's the use of protocols or trying to create structures that are data points. So he has trust and he has precision. So the four quadrants, really basic language, but I use it all the time, with leaders for them to understand first what is collaboration and how do you make it effective. So the first quadrant is called no collaboration. Not very inspiring, but there's no trust and there's no use of precision. There's no protocols. The next one is what you just described: contrived congeliality. That means that there is very little trust, but very high precision, meaning there's policies, there's handbooks, there's surveys, you have meeting agendas. But in reality, the leader's not looking for feedback. They look like when you walk in, this is a very highly organized school, but on the surface is actually the leader, very hierarchical, just putting structures in place to control the behavior of their staff, but not really trying to elevate their voice or looking at the collective wisdom. So they have the agenda is not shared. The agenda is not a rolling agenda, but he creates the agenda. So you have all these structures in place, but because of how structured and lack of voice there is, there's no trust. Then the third collaboration quadrant is called informal collaboration. And I had this in Luxembourg. At one point, we had teachers there a long time, like over 20. I mean, I left at 31 and I wasn't considered an outlier. You know, people stayed a long time. When you have teams that have been together a very long time, so they have high trust, really high trust, but low precision. They don't use any protocols. There's no everything. So, for example, you have a group one um Langlit group. They've been together six years. They know how to do moderated grade and they know how to do the IAs. Not much is documented. They've been together so long. All the units are in this one person's Google folder. So if that person leaves, we're gonna have a tough time. But they're just there's such high trust because they've known each other and they're very effective. Their results are great, kids love them. But in terms of the organization, there's very little documentation or procedure. So when someone new comes to that team, they really struggle. So imagine someone retires of a team of six, they've been together seven years. A new member comes in and says, So, how do we do the orals? Don't worry about it. We had just think of a system together. What is your protocol when you read the IAs? Oh, don't worry. And then the fourth quadrant is professionalism collaborative. I probably have the names a little bit off, but that's where you have high trust and high precision, where you are using, you have structures in place, but those structures in place are actually used to validate the voices and develop the reflective capacity of your staff. So once we start identifying the type of collaboration with leaders, I then say, give me examples where you're using high trust, where you have high trust and using structures. And using that as an audit, a framework to audit, that becomes non-it almost separates me from what the issue is with the school, because we're using a framework. I'm having them find evidence. It's always data points. So if you're saying that you're getting so sensitive about this issue, why is that? You know, and trying for them to look at it in terms, well, you have the structures in place, but you're not allowing for voice. Lack of confidence, lack of ability, confidence. So I'm always trying for them to look through it through collaboration or any structures or difficulty through a certain, I would say, a lens or perspective. So it becomes a framework for them for their thinking. And that helps them. But with some leaders, I'm gonna be horrible right now. That's who they are. You can give as many models as you want or many structures. That's how they feel effective leadership is, regardless of the feedback they get. I mean, I don't mean to be negative, but that's true.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that's that's very true. And how do you, you know, you've trained so many leaders, you know, and you've done so much work in this uh field that you've seen it all. When you're running a workshop, I assume that the most of the time the leaders who sign up want to be there, they've chosen to be there, but then other times the school is saying, you need to be there.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:So what do you see in those moments? What are the barriers you're seeing or the obstacles that are getting in the way of certain leaders seeing a new way to lead? And how do you break through? And and I know it's not always possible to break through, but you know, I I use a lot of provocations and and uh a lot of videos uh to really start the conversations, but I I want to provoke deep emotion when I lead workshops so that people can connect to their essence and they can hopefully see the barriers that are getting in the way of them being a more impactful leader. But yeah, just share your experience and what you've seen and and talk about those obstacles and barriers that uh have revealed themselves in your leadership training work.
SPEAKER_03:With when it comes to providing any type of professional learning, it's to me, it's it's a process. So it's first meeting with the leadership team or members of even before I arrive. Yeah. And looking at uh, we might do just some protocol prior to just trying to get those provocations, trying, and you're right, it's getting them to think. It's not about me talking. You know, it you know, some people say, Why do you always wear black when you facilitate? I say, because I should be the background. My role is to ignite what whatever thought processes you have. And I'm about I facilitate, I provide structures for your conversations. It's not for me to be on a platform going, I actually time myself when I facilitate. Oh, nice. After 10 minutes, I stop talking. Yeah. Even when I do virtual, it's 10-2. It's from adaptive schools. Time to check in for understanding. And the questioning is the key. So that process of professional learning starts with those meetings prior to even get me going on site.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Working with the head of school, working with HR, wondering what should I be aware of.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:The one session absolutely is talking about getting them to develop their reflective capacity. But it's more than just the one workshop. It's what we do after the workshop. Because my one workshop is not going to, okay, I like to think, okay, I work hard, I try to do a good job, but one workshop is not going to make a difference in changing someone's perspective. It's those sustainable conversations you have after that workshop, working with the head of school saying, what's the next step afterwards? I might be able to give a little provocation that makes a person, and you can notice in the body language. I mean, you present a lot. You know, you see the person with the folded arms, you know, you're like, oh, they do not want to be here.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So I'm super nice to them. Oh, so nice to see you. I shake everybody's hands, or not anymore with COVID. I acknowledge every single person in a workshop before I even start. Like, go to every table, introduce myself, and you sense that on automatically. Then knowing that person, then of course, you start looking at how they're interacting. Then you do what you do when you talk grade six. You walk behind their chair, you know, to see how they're doing. But it's more than just that workshop. It's having that conversation after the workshop and continuing that dialogue with that team. That's how you're going to change perspectives and mindset. I'm kind of like, okay, I'm that rah-rah, rah. All right. But it's really what you do after I leave and how we continue that conversation. So when I worked with EACIS, one thing I value is most of the schools I work with, I've been there like this summer in August. I was in, I worked with seven schools in August.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:It was Vietnam, Taiwan, Barcelona, Brussels, Breda, um, London. Most of the schools, I had one or two new ones, third time in Vietnam, third time in Benjamin Franklin, second time in uh Ermitage, because the leaders know the impact of having that sustainable conversation. And that is what I know makes an impact because they start trusting me as a trainer. I'm not just drop in, drop out, oh Nancy's here, we're gonna play some games, and she's gone. They know, like with a school in London, I did a full-day session. One month later, we call it embedding, implementation. What have you done since I left that have impacted your team? And it's a success story. So we start off with cool and the gang, let's celebrate, and then we talk about implementation. Then I go back on site a month later, six weeks later, we then talk about let's bring up the key concept. How have you implemented, embedded, or has decided that doesn't work for me? Why? And we talk about that. A brilliant approach by the school on subject, embed, impact. And that is what I feel will make a difference when you have those leaders that are just really have this block of why, or having those continued conversations. Just it to me, the dropping in for a weekend won't make that difference.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you're so right. And I see that with um, and again, I don't want this to sound harsh or judgmental, but I see a lot of one and done uh consultants who post work and you know working with this school, and it's kind of a one and done thing. And I think the best presenters are the ones who really follow up on the work and uh are deeply invested in the work, and it's part of their process to do those continual check-ins throughout the year because the standards you walk past are the standards you accept, right? So when you're working with a school and not all leaders are on board, it requires uh a team change for every leader to truly be accountable, but for leaders to hold each other accountable.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:So it sounds like in your case, when you're going there for the uh embed and implement uh part of the work, it it is about that self-accountability, team accountability uh piece that's so important for leaders who are resistant to change to know well, this is not going away.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:So either my leadership style doesn't fit the school and I need to move on, or I need to look within myself and really understand the necessary steps I need to take to become a better leader and to take it seriously.
SPEAKER_03:And realizing that this is the this is the journey of the school right now, and you have to decide whether you embrace that journey, or like you said, maybe your style doesn't align with where the school is their their targets and where they want. And that's fine. Knowing international schools, you're fine, but it's really those relationships. It goes back to relationships, how we started this conversation. I love going back to a school a second time, and people like and I'm like, How are you doing? And this summer being back in uh Saigon. Uh, brilliant director, Katrina Moran. This is my third time, and just seeing people and I know where they are and they know their journey. It's a beautiful school, innovative, creative. She's a brilliant leader. Like, you know, I want to grow up and be like Katrina. Um, that type of relationship will make that impact. And I that's what I love about the work I'm doing is that rhythm of these conversations that we have. And like you said, the drop-in doesn't do much. You know, I I love that sustainable conversations that we're embracing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I want to move into your work with ECIS. So you're currently the the chair of ECIS Women in Education, right?
SPEAKER_03:No, I just stepped down because I just became um, I'm now I you're familiar with Women Ed. Women Ed is at global. I'm now a trustee and a global strategic leader. So I took that on uh this school year, and now we have Pauline O'Brien, who is leading the ECIS uh women education, and I've moved into uh the women ed uh trustee for the charity.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So you're still heavily involved in that work, and I think that you've really carried the responsibility of advocating for women's leadership, which is amazing, especially in a white male-dominated education, international education system, right? And a lot of um well-intentioned older directors, and there's not a lot of representation. So the work that you've done is really important in developing women's leadership. Uh so important. So, how has bearing that weight shaped your own relationship with power? And what have you had to learn about yourself to stay authentic while representing others?
SPEAKER_03:The one word that I'm always uncomfortable with um is power. You know, I I you know, it's it's um, I always like the word um influence or impact that can have on others, but I know with people in leadership, like you said it perfectly, they do some people crave that power. Um for for me, I'm more or less the silent um, I'm not, I know I'm loud, but my biggest joy is when I work with women in education and you see them. I mentor quite a few women. Um, and I it's my joy. It's absolutely my joy to elevate and actually get them to recognize their own strengths and at times to just go for it. Like there's a job application, and they're thinking, I don't have every one of these criteria for their job profile. Who cares? Go for it. You know, I'm almost like their silent cheerleader. So my biggest thrill when it comes to working with women education is when you see someone who's gotten a job that I've worked with, and you're just like, that is the most powerful thing we can do for women education is providing that mentoring, providing that place where someone can share those vulnerabilities, share a place where I have no idea what to do, or someone's speaking to me. I don't know how to handle the situation. And what I'm doing now is I'm working with schools and developing mentoring programs at their school, not just for women, but for everyone to just have that person they can connect with. And when it comes to the women's education, it's that intentionality of providing opportunities for them to lead. And it's also the idea of even men who are working with women, how do you amplify their voice? Because just because someone isn't speaking in a meeting doesn't mean they're not thinking.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So how do you bring them to that conversation? Um, amplification actually came from Barack Barama's um term in presidency, where this sounds horrible, where I would give an idea. I'm like, oh, maybe we should uh I don't know, get red napkins. And then Bob would say, I think we should get red napkins. And everyone's like, Bob, that's a great idea. Amplification is going, Nancy, thank you for contributing that idea. That being more aware of the voices in the room and how you acknowledge and affirm their contributions. And if we had that as a norm, rather than, and you always have that one person who takes somebody else's idea, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And at times we have to ensure that those who do contribute, we do affirm their contributions to that conversation. And it's a mindset of how we work, and it's not just for women, I would say for anybody, you know, anybody that we're working on a teams, how do we validate each one of those voices and ensure that those who might be quieter and quieter just not just speaking, how do you intentionally bring them into that conversation? Even if they say, Do you know what? I'm I need time to think, but at least we acknowledge their presence. And that's what women ed is doing. You know, we're acknowledging their presence, but even going further, activating voices. And I just find that the the community is so beautiful. The one with women in education with ECIS, Women Ed, the global, there's like 37. I hope I'm saying the right number, networks globally. It's the most yesterday. I actually had the trustee meeting with um Women Ed. I left like lighter than anything. I just couldn't believe I had such an thoughtful, provocative conversation. Were there difference of opinions? Yes, I love that. But the respect and the knowledge that was coming, it was absolutely, and that's what we want to promote with every organization. Like, and but it has to be done with intentionality. And those leaders have to know how to facilitate a meeting to allow every person in that room, not just women, anybody in that room to have the voice activated.
SPEAKER_00:You know Jim Rosine. Yeah, he's a good friend. He's become a very good friend, and and uh he's always been a mentor of mine. And I love the way he leads workshops and the way he works with leadership teams and the invitations that he provides to people.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:And his work actually came in handy. I was delivering a big workshop last last year in Asia, and there might have been 50 teachers, uh, principals, PYP coordinators, you know, lots of different uh people in different positions. And I was presenting this idea of uh curriculum planning and the idea of like where do we start with our our heart or do we start with standards? Because I see sometimes in teachers when they start with standards, which is so important, of course. I'm not saying one or the other, I just wanted to provoke thinking. And I I said, like, for me, I always want to start with my heart and what what it is I want young people to walk away feeling about themselves and uh what I want them walking away having experienced. And then I absolutely know that I will be able to connect standards. So I said, that's that's my personal preference. The director of professional learning, you're wrong. Oh sorry, and he was pissed off, and he said it was unfair that I was putting teachers in a position to have to even consider not starting with standards because he believed in it so strongly, and in that moment, I was like, shit, I'm standing in front of this room of people, and and I remember Jim, and I was like, thank you for for sharing that. You know, and you you bring up such an important point, and I want to know a bit more about that, and I'd love to have another chat with you on the side and better understand why that matters so much to you. You know, and it opened up a really positive conversation, and and in the end, he acknowledged what I was trying to say and get teachers to think about, but held firm in his belief that we always have to start with standards. So, yeah, it's so important as a workshop leader and as a leader, um, you know, facilitating a conversation with their team to, as you say, bring these protocols into it so that all voices are heard, especially the one the people that don't talk very much because they have a lot to say and they're deep thinkers, right? So, can you give some examples of very specific protocols that you use that will be beneficial for the listeners to hear and consider?
SPEAKER_03:I it's what what you just said about heart. When I talk about facilitation, I always mention that every facilitation should have the heart, the head, and the hands.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You know, the heart is making that connection. So one of the beautiful connections, really simple, is uh share, celebrate a name. Celebrate any name, the name of a pet, your name. So I always give pathways where people don't feel like it's personal. The name of could be your name, any name, a name of a name that you like. So some people go for a name of their favorite doll or but we try to one thing about connecting, we have to ensure that it has a professional goal to it and not an icebreaker. Icebreakers are really uncomfortable. We want to ensure that it promotes inclusion um and not alienate people. So I'm one of the people who hate bingo. You know, what's your favorite ice cream? Who cares? Like, all right, it's I'm sorry, that's a waste of my time. Especially I worked in a high school where you know, the high school, they were like, they could any anytime I mentioned inclusion activities, they hated it because they felt, what are we going to do? Hold hands and do kumbaya, you know. Um, so it's the idea that any type of meeting to build connection is based upon a learning outcome.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:The one I use is very simple, share something about your name. And then once they share something with a partner, um, I never asked for them to share their own. Let's affirm what you just heard because you were actively listening. Yeah. Because that person might not share, but I always ask, say before, be sure you have permission. So the thing, you know, the idea of sharing name, it promotes inclusion, the idea of recognizing the diversity in our room. Um the other one I do really quick, I actually is give a six-word biography to start off. I do like a lot of kinesthetic movement to get people connected. So the six-word biography, sharing a name. This one is really fun and it gets people connected. I um getting them grounded to the situation is we I tell them we have to get our minds tuned together. So get with a partner and stand back to back with one another. So they're standing back to back. And I said, You have the choice of three movements. Let's see if you and your partner can have the same movement on the count of three. So it's either a thumbs up, a high five. And I said, All right, connect your minds. And I make it real fun. Connect your mind. And then I count to three turn, and do you both have this? It absolutely brings a roar of laughter to the room. And they're extremely thrilled that they got the same as their partner.
SPEAKER_00:Um, beautiful way to get people connected kinesthetically and just I just wanted to say one thing there and then let you continue. Emotional attunement.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Think of that with your teams. How do you celebrate the processes, the small contributions that someone makes rather than being a major milestone? We have to start thinking about each one of us and how we move along, whatever journey we're on, and making sure we have moments to celebrate as a team and as individuals. But I always make sure after I do a protocol, I always give a rationale. You know, even when I facilitate, I always create a slide that says what we're doing, why we're doing it, how we're doing it. So if they leave the room, they have a copy of that. So when I facilitate, they always get a participant slide deck where they get every protocol. So they can then use the same protocol with their teams after the workshop. Um it's a concept from Adept of Schools. It's called triple track. That when you're in professional learning, the first track should be how is this impacting you as a learner? Number two, how will this impact your team? And how will this impact the students that you work with? So I always give them a link to every protocol that I use so they can then use it once they leave. And then remember, I mentioned earlier that embed and impact. I go back and say, How did that protocol work? Oh, I was able to go back to the link and I modified it. I'm like, great. So those type of protocols um are easy, no setup required. And it's just, and I constantly am trying to learn more about facilitation. I I um I belong to the International Association for Facilitators.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And um, I just recently got endorsed and I was really proud because I was interviewed and I was super nervous. And I was like, oh my goodness, you know, even though I've been doing it forever, all of a sudden you're getting these questions like, what's the difference between a trainer and a facilitator? And I was like, I know this, you know, and the gentleman I had was so gorgeous. And uh he facilitates like for Google or, you know, Toyota. And he goes, Where do you facilitate? I'm like, international schools. And he was like, that's exciting, but it's that to facilitative leadership is an area that most leaders, from what I've experienced, need to take a little bit of a deeper dive in um in terms of creating structures that promote discussions. When it's 3 30 on a Wednesday, the staff doesn't want to be lecture to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Put it in an email. You know, separate your meeting agenda items. If it's teaching and learning, it's top of the agenda. If it's operational, put it in an email.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You know, when I work with any time I work with leaders and they're asking, well, how do I know if my meeting's effective? Obviously, feedback. I said, ask two questions. How did this meeting directly impact or influence student learning? How did this meeting directly impact teacher practice? I got those questions from I was trained by a brilliant facilitator. Her name is Pat Hanley from the PTC, and I co-trained with her. And um, we did this course. Those are brilliant questions to ask at the end of the meeting. And then once you get the answers, you share it with the staff.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:And then when it says this meeting was a waste of time, I actually keep those comments. And it's good feedback for me to say, whoa, that was, I didn't realize this is how that meeting went off. And that helps me facilitate to get that feedback.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And there's a great website called Session Lab. And what's great about it is they have protocols like so many other websites. But what they do differently, though, is they have the protocol always based upon a learning outcome. Then they have an actual picture or diagram of the protocol being used. And afterwards, you have the facilitators commenting if it actually works. So it's a real exchange of facilitators looking at a protocol, trying it and saying, Do you know what? This didn't work for me, but this did work, and they put it in the comments. Love it. Because sometimes I look at a protocol and I'm thinking, I don't understand how this works. Like it's too complicated. But this is about facilitators sharing their expertise about different ways to structure conversations and you see the dialogue going on. Very, I just I love it. For me, it's my little when I do need assistance with a meeting, I go to that website and it's uh really so helpful.
SPEAKER_00:I'm jotting these things down, so I'm gonna include them in the show notes as resources for people after the episode. And yeah, a lot comes up for me when you share what you did. And you know, this is I think my 286ths, uh 286th interview that I've done, right? And having interviewed best-selling authors and professional coaches, uh, sport coaches, Olympians, whoever it is, there are common threads that reveal greatness, right? And it's the work you're describing, and it's those people in their positions, those leaders, men and women, who prioritize relationships and prioritize all voices being heard. And one of my mentors says, Culture is an artifact of the relationships we have, right? And I go back, I want to share a short story of deep frustration. And I was on a team, and there were basically 10 of us on. The team. And there was so much going on in the organization, and well-being was being impacted in a huge way. And our meetings always started. We did adaptive schools, and our meetings always started off with the inclusion activity. Okay, so the facilitator. Okay, favorite movie of all time. Uh, favorite food, most embarrassing moment. And the leaders doing the best job they can, right? So this is not a judgment on them, they're just following adaptive schools to a T. And then it goes around the table, and I find myself getting more and more frustrated because there are real things that our team needed to talk about. And it was this bypass all the time. And I had suggested, I said, I really feel that we need to do something more meaningful in the inclusion activity. And what I suggest is something like a turn and talk, so we don't have to sit for 15 minutes hearing everybody because you tune out. And that doesn't mean that you don't care. You tune out because our brains are neurologically wired to tune out to information that is not relevant and important in the moment. And that's just the way the brain works. But what I suggested is how about a turn and talk for four or five minutes? Where we I jotted this down, where we might answer the question, what was our biggest challenge over the last week? And what does this have us thinking about? Or conversely, like two questions to choose from what's a breakthrough that you've had, or somebody that's really impacted you in the last week and made a difference. And we do a turn and talk, and then you're gonna allow people to uh really talk about what's going on for them. And then we have a whole, you know, for another three minutes, four minutes, not everybody, but who wants to share what that was like for you and and what it has you thinking about, or has there been uh any kind of shift, emotional shift in you? And it was totally shot down. We've got too much on the agenda to cover. Some people don't want to go deep like that, some people aren't touchy-feely, and I'm like, that's bullshit. It's not about being touchy-feely, it's about being authentic, and it's about creating a safe space where we can talk about what we need to talk about because this is not working. And and it was just, you know, for whatever reason, you know, it was turned down, and we might have tried it once, whatever, but it to me, it that's the ongoing work. That's the the work that we need to get done. And those uh people out there, those amazing leaders like yourself and so many others, that's the work they're willing to invest themselves in because it makes everybody better at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_03:I tell you know, it goes back to what I was saying, the how unfortunate that this person realized that, you know, Andy Buck's book, Leadership 3.0, and he talks about organizational culture, evolves around the practices, protocols, and procedures you have in place. Can you imagine if you started uh we do the same, the the question, a beautiful question? What what made you smile today in school? So I so when I started with the upper school, initially the high school teachers weren't inclusion. And I stopped using the word because it as soon as you mention it, people are are like running away. So it's really getting them grounded to where we are. The the power of the question is an I would say the most effective and easiest way to get people to start sharing and also changing the variety and depth of the questions as the group continues to meet. So the first meeting got the upper school staff. What made you smile today in your classroom? That's it. Changes the mindset they're talking about, and every time we start the meeting, the question should be based upon what are we going to be talking about in this meeting? So we were c talking about student behavior. So the meeting is about what made you smile? What is a child's behavior? And then you can start moving into like those other and the questions, you have a brilliant turning talk. I don't when leaders avoid that type of connection, that gives of such a red flag to me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I'm thinking, do they realize not the impact? It'd be you'd move further with this initiative or implementation if you had people connected and validating their expertise. Then you would actually move quicker. Spend more. I when we talk about the heart, the head and the hand. And I talk with middle leaders, I said the start of the school year, you're gonna have a lot more heart trying to promote connections, motivation, psychological safety. Head might be a little bit less in terms of talking about curriculum. They just want to get their classroom started. That's September. In November, the heart might, you still have to include a bit of the heart, one question, but you might be more focusing on headwork, inquiry, discussion, provocations. But every meeting has to end with the hands. A takeaway, an impact on the classroom, an impact on them as a learner. Because otherwise, they go into that meeting saying, This is a total waste of my time. Why did I have to be here? Send the email. So, but the heart heading the hands comes in waves in terms of the debt. So, right now, most schools should be focusing more on getting those connections, but not those. I was just with a friend of mine. We had um lunch yesterday, and she said she had four different meetings. Each one started with an inclusion activity. By the end, she was sick of telling who she was. You know, she's like, one more time, you know. And that the leaders need to plan that ahead of time. If you have two days of full induction for either new staff or returning staff, think about how they're going to four different meetings. Yeah. Do you really want to spend 10 minutes? I'm not saying 10 minutes on a worthwhile that is based upon what you want to achieve during that meeting. Not another. This one kills. Sorry. Tell me about your summer holiday.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Really? Like you can do that during lunch.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But we have only 50 minutes to meet. Let's talk about, you know, talk about the the child that you felt made the biggest impact with you last year. What a lovely way to start. Also, it changes the mindset if they're already negative, because they're thinking about their own success and their mind, their their disposition changes. Yeah. And it's already creating promote creating that connection. And it's a positivity. They're thinking about their own success story. What a beautiful way to start a meeting.
SPEAKER_00:And it changes the narrative. And yes, uh, one of my favorite quotes is the uh from uh Dr. Jim Lair, who is a brilliant performance psychologist, and he's in his 80s now. And what he says, and I've shared this on the podcast many times, what he says is the power broker in your life is the voice that no one hears. How well you revisit the tone and content of your private voice is what determines the quality of your life. It's the master storyteller, and the stories we tell ourselves create a reality. So what you've just described is changing the narrative, but also planting the seeds for that those narratives to flourish, right? And you know, at times that might mean somebody may need to just get something off their chest that they're struggling with, but it also might mean celebrating a success, whatever it is. But it's that idea of the being willing to go there and the importance of that and the vast amount of literature and research that supports the importance of it, right? And I think of you know, in our description of the leader who's not willing to go there, now we look at Charles Feltman's work and we say, is it emotional, social, and emotional competence that they're lacking, or do they not care? Like, like it allows you, like we've got to be open-minded with what might be going on for that leader and their resistance to go to that place, right? And and try to have conversations in empowering ways to uh unpack that, right? Because that's the work that needs to get done. So, you know, I think it's really important to consider. But do you have anything else to add there with that the quote about the power broker and like that idea of narrative?
SPEAKER_03:I will also to elevate more of the narratives that we have with our staff. Yeah, that when we do have such every what is the one thing we always say we don't have in school time? So when we do have those monthly staff meetings, as a leader who should be a facilitative leader, how do you start elevating the narratives? And I'm not talking about everyone sharing, but trying to get them to first acknowledge who they are. But that takes the planning of that leader. And I, when looking at some meeting designs, and I think meeting design is a lost, is a lost art with some leaders, that they just know, oh, it's Wednesday, I have to go to the meeting, and they have their powers, you know, PowerPoint. And I've been looking at some leaders' slides recently. They've asked me, and I love slide design. I think there's a real theory between, you know, Zen presentation. I actually love the idea of colors and you know, and I just look and I'm like, would you want to look at this? I mean, I mean no disrespect. Like, how do you forget about the slides? My husband was the um he worked for EY in Luxembourg for many years, and um he was the uh CFO. He never did a presentation with a slide deck. Never. He knew his narrative, he knew how to bring, I mean, I I don't want to let him know I'm talking about him really nicely because usually I just he annoys me. So I'm gonna say something nice about him. But he's an amazing speaker. He he just brings out the best in people. So I'm thinking about your quote, how can leaders apply that when they have that contact with their staff and not worry about hearing their voice, but elevating other voices?
SPEAKER_00:But yeah, it's it's so important to consider. So I hope that the leaders listening to this uh out there, it has them thinking, you know, because that's really what I want this conversation to do is to get people thinking. And everything we're talking about is not just in the field of uh education, this organizational development and leadership. I interviewed uh one of my friends who's the CEO of Mazda Canada, and he's on his way out, and he has done an amazing job at Mazda over, I think he's been in that position for seven years. And Mazda has outpaced their competitors by a four to one margin over the past couple of years. It was three to one, and then last year it was four to one. And we unpacked his leadership style, and he does everything we're describing. You know, so it's it's great leadership practice in general, you know, and it it is even more important in schools because you're dealing with people, not cars, right? But you're dealing with people. So in moving forward, share more what your hopes are with your work and and what you want people to know about uh your work and your initiatives and and your vision and and opportunities uh that they might consider in the future.
SPEAKER_03:I continue my passion for middle leadership. Uh now I'm head of middle leadership for ECIS, and I just embrace the work of just highlighting the work of what middle leadership does, teacher leaders do. I I think the principals or some leaders forget that they are at such uh they're at a different perspective than anybody in the school. They're leading the people that they're constantly working with. They're still teaching three, four, five classes and still expected to lead a team. So trying to develop their capacity, I continue. I do a lot of courses online. ECS, um, you talk about a leader that makes a difference. I now work with Cam Shohan. I don't know who she is. Um brilliant. She's the executive director. And what I love about what my work is she totally trusts me in terms of when I present, when I meet with schools. I don't have to show her my slide deck. You know, it's just this idea that I hired you, and I'm thinking of this in relation to principals working with their teachers, because you have experience and expertise. I trust you. And that just gives me the motivation to just go. Of course, I check in with her. So it's continuing with my courses. I do something called um middle leader cafes. Actually, talking about surveys, last July I did a survey asking middle leaders what topics do they want for the cafes? It's a one-hour virtual session. I got over 100 responses. Nice. I shared the responses on LinkedIn saying, okay, I got your vote. We're now going to plan three sessions based upon the topics you voted on. Again, trying to use their voice. And I continue with uh doing also conferences on site besides virtual. So I'll be going to Baku soon for Azerbaijan. Yeah, Azerbaijan. Love Francesco. He's amazing at the European Um Azerbaijan School. And I'm also going to Atlanta International School. Uh, they have a conference there coming up. And then doing my continuing my work with Women Ed. We have an on-site event in Luxembourg coming up in October. And then uh lastly would be focusing, continuing learning about facilitation. I love engaging in different courses to ensure that I'm current, that if I'm going to be talking about facilitation, I have to model what I want others to be doing. And that to me is a whole new arena of learning. First of all, it's no educators. I'm like the only one working and that conversation, and like you said, it's the same conversation about voice, group dynamics, psychological safety. It's the same, regardless of where they're working. So between the middle leadership that I absolutely adore, doing the middle leader cafes, uh, women ed facilitation. And of course, I'll be um, I continue with the loft, ISL loft, which it's now in its fifth year, which I'm really proud of. It started in 2020, and now we're going, we're past our fifth season. So I'll be working with that as well.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that's amazing. What comes up for me when I hear you describe your work and how much it lights you up is that idea of genuine purpose, right? And knowing what our purpose is. And that's a lot of the work that I do, as well as trying to help facilitate thinking around that idea. And my mentor, Dr. Michael Gervais, who I trained under, he was the performance psychologist for the Seattle Seahawks.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_00:And uh he worked very closely with Pete Carroll, the coach of the Seahawks at the time, who's moved on to Las Vegas now. But uh, what they talk about is this idea, the importance of alignment uh to our core values, and then always being sure that our thoughts, words, and actions align to our core values, that align to our purpose and constantly reflecting on how true am I in my thoughts, words, and actions. And the closer we can be aligned in our thoughts, words, and actions, then that's where we have the greatest impact, right? Um, it also has me thinking about you any kind of routines you have in place to stay creative and to stay motivated. I mean, many people do different things, but do you have any daily routines um that keep you inspired and motivated? Something that is really important to you.
SPEAKER_03:This is gonna sound very simplistic, but I just walk. I live behind the forest, the countryside. I walk 10K every morning.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, nice.
SPEAKER_03:And that to me, just because I do so much virtual, yes, I do, but there are times where I might not travel for two or three weeks. I need that to just just set my that's that sets my mind for the day. I see wild boar, I see horses, I see cows, um, and I it's that's my routine to get almost set for the day. And everyone laughs, they're like, oh, Nancy's on her walk, she just knows that. And I only listen to Hans Zimmer music. I love simple tracks. It's Hans Zimmer or anything, that's my motivation. And then I'm able to go um to my day. So my routine is very simple. I'm very lucky. I live in Luxembourg and it's a beautiful country. Um, but the connections, and even though I work for a company that we're all virtual, I still feel very close to them because we're talking almost every day. Like I have this good friend, she's head of professional learning, Helen Morgan. This during the week, I think we speak or chat every single day. So even though we're people say, Oh, is it hard to work virtually after working in a school for 36 years? And for me, it was a beautiful, perfect transition for me because I have times where I'm so intense working in schools and I actually love being home. I'm a home buddy. Like I love cooking, I love staying home. My husband is home now with me, and I just I'm just I love it having lunches together. So I kind of like the shift from being in schools where you have to eat at 12, you know, or it's a wonderful, I say transition at my age. I've worked, uh worked beautifully.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that's amazing. And I think that idea of your routine uh speaks volumes to who you are in terms of a very reflective person. And for me, it's running, you know, and I I last year I haven't run nearly as much as I I should have just because of so many things going on with the move and all of that. And I've really found a love of running again. And for me, I find myself, you know, I stop listening to podcasts on the run, and oftentimes I I choose not to listen to anything because it's sometimes I'll listen to you know, music or a podcast, but there's something within me that I know that when I'm going on a run that I need to work through.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:It might be an upcoming presentation, it might be there's slight agitation there, and what is the agitation trying to say to me? You know, what do I need to really reflect on? And it really helps me to be clear or to gain clarity, I should say, and to know my next steps of action. When you set out on a walk, do you sometimes have those moments where you're unsettled and you know that you need to figure something out and set an intention to figure it out, or you just uh let things surface during the walk and then work through it? Or you know?
SPEAKER_03:I I think items just come into my mind. I um for me, it's just a it's such a beautiful countryside. So at times my mind goes blank and I'm just looking at, I know the sounds out, I look at the sky or the view, and then suddenly I think a a thought might come into my mind. And I only listen to classical music, so it's just it it almost brings down whatever anxiety I'm having. And when I don't walk, I just traveled for a while. I was like five weeks travel and I didn't walk. I can feel the difference in me. Like my hip is hurting. I just I I need I need to get outside. And though when you know, when you train, you're on, you do like 20,000 steps in a day, but they're not healthy steps at times. This to me is that intentional. I'm going out, I have almost two hours to myself, and I just go. And it really is that reflection time where I'm thinking, and I try to avoid it. Sometimes I create, I go on my phone and I make a list. Oh, remember to do this. I try not to do that because I feel like I should be my time without thinking about work. But it does help because then I get back and I'm like, oh, I'm glad I wrote this down.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I just talked to my phone, Nancy, remember to do this. So, but it's just a quiet time. I'm not with anybody because you know when you present, you're you're always talking.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And all of a sudden it's two hours of just oh, I love down regulation. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So in segueing to a close, I want to share a quick story, then ask you to leave us with uh one last bit of wisdom and insight. But Denzel Washington, I've shared this before, gave a great commencement speech where he talks about the ghosts of unfulfilled potential. And it's a bit morbid, he says, but it's important to think about so that when you're on your deathbed one day, will you be surrounded by these ghosts of unfulfilled potential? Right. And they might be angry and pissed off and bitter and resentful because they gave you gifts that you didn't act on, and they gave you opportunities that you didn't seize, and they gave you doors to walk through, but you didn't walk through them. So now they have to go to the grave with you, being angry and resentful, you know. And he uses it as a metaphor to really impart on people the importance of living up to your potential and seizing the opportunities that you were given and acting on your strengths. And what comes up for you when you think of that? And as you move, you know, you I don't think you'll ever retire because you're always going to be busy and connected. But as you move to the next chapter of your life, what comes up for you? And if you project forward as morbid as it is, like what evidence will you have that you there will be no ghosts of unfulfilled potential?
SPEAKER_03:That's a tough, that's a good question. I like that one. I would say thinking about the ghost that I don't want with me. As a younger leader, I made mistakes. And I want to ensure that I've actually gone back to people that years later talking about situations that still I don't know why. I I felt like I felt I just didn't handle it right. And I needed to go back to it and talk to that when I first started out. So going back to how we started, I want to make sure that I continue as I go on, that make those lollipop moments how we started, that I have impacted somebody in a positive way. But yet with those ghosts, I guess it's always thinking always ensuring that regardless of treating people with the kindness that they deserve and holding back judgment, and that I want to make sure I continue to do because at times I I'm too reactionary, I'm too emotional, and to make sure I take that step back, listen to that individual. I do that more now than I did as a younger leader, but ensuring that I continue, especially when I work with different schools, to make sure that I'm respecting their culture and context, making sure they know that I'm there to elevate whatever good work they're doing. I'm not there to fix anything. I'm there to just really showcase what you're doing well and how to continue that momentum rather than coming in to say, I have to fix something. And I would say also last thing would just be my family, making sure that, you know, I think of my two boys and my husband that they remember me smiling, making banana bread, and having three, you know, I I I'm known for having cheesy decorations. Like for Thanksgiving, you come to my house, there's like three blow up turkeys that are two to three meters big. Like, like I just love decorating. Um, that they have, they've always known that there was a place that they know they go home to. And that's what I like to think. And even professionally, that people know they can come to me. And I love it because many do. Like I would do a workshop, and I always tell people, if you have a concern, just contact me. You need some help. That to me is an affirmation that people see me as authentic. And that's what I want to be known for, as authentic. Not this, you know, some people said, Oh, Nancy, could you present on this? I know you could do it. I'm like, yeah, but it's not me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I don't do that. Like, yeah, I could try, but I have to make sure I always stay true to myself. And you do that, then people will respect and value the impact that you had.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that goes right back to the thoughts, words, and actions. And something has just come up that I want to ask you about that I think is really important because you just went back to your younger self and the leader you once were and the mistakes you made. Can you look at the younger Nancy with self-compassion and forgiveness?
SPEAKER_03:Yes, now. Then when you first start out, you're very hard on yourself thinking, oh, I didn't handle you, you know, you know, when you have a bad conversation, knowing I shouldn't have had that conversation. I should have done something different with that conversation. And now I think I did everything with a sense of good intent. If you do, if you go into a situation, even if you make any mistake, if you go into it with good intent, I feel like the the guilt you feel can be somewhat lessened because you went in with a mindset of trying to be good, trying to make a positive outcome, but how you facilitated it might have not had the that impact. So intent versus impact. So I know going in, I always went in with a sense of kindness, but I'm not sure if it always was executed in that manner.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's important because everything we've talked about is leaders developing this capacity to be able to create those conditions where everybody can flourish. And, you know, when I think back to my younger self as well, um, a young leader, a new leader, and the mistakes I made, um, I can look back in the same way, knowing that I feel I had the best of intentions, but it just didn't come off the right way. Exactly. And also understanding that perhaps the leadership structure that was in place at the time didn't mentor you the way you needed to be mentored to be able to approach that situation with more clarity and you know, with more tools and and skills. So everything we've talked about today is so important for leaders to understand this. And new leaders who don't have a lot of experience, um, it's important for them to understand the skills that they need to build, to strive towards and to work towards to have the impact that they really desire. So I just wanted to tag that on at the end.
SPEAKER_03:But definitely. It's also for new leaders, just be true to yourself, know who you are, keep the pillar of humanity that you have and be authentic. And that goes, don't try to be somebody else, just be yourself. And I tell so many new leaders that, and just even if it show that vulnerability, you know, Breen Brown's work, show that vulnerability. You will get more connection of showing that vulnerability than not showing your true self. So it's um nice way to conclude.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I appreciate it. Okay, where can people find you on social media?
SPEAKER_03:Uh, I'm on LinkedIn, yeah, uh, mainly. I used to be on Twitter or X, whatever, but that's kind of gone downhill. So I'm mostly on LinkedIn, uh, post frequently, and also you can find me on um found on the ECS website for any courses that uh people are interested in, or to contact me. Um, all my contact details are on LinkedIn and on ECIS website.
SPEAKER_00:Can you share your full name?
SPEAKER_03:Yes, Nancy Loes Scuccurini, and you can contact me at nancy at ecis.org.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, great. Well, I really appreciate our time together today, and I I know one day we'll meet face to face and the conversations will continue, but I I really do hope we can stay connected.
SPEAKER_03:What a privilege I felt. This this flew by. I just can't believe our conversation. Love the idea of, and I can't believe how many quotes you know, by the way. I'm totally impressed. Very impressed, by the way.
SPEAKER_00:I love quotes. You are good.
SPEAKER_03:This has been a thrill, and I just love this conversation. This is something where you've spoken to my heart about what we can do within schools and really make a difference when it comes to our leadership approach.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, thank you so much. And uh I'm gonna close off the show and then we will uh just say parting words. But everybody, thank you very much for listening to this conversation with Nancy Loest Squiccierini, and uh I hope you come back to listen to future episodes.
SPEAKER_01:Treat your mother like she's made a goal. After all, she brought you here. And if you're lost, go see the ocean. It will always help you steer. So then you will be stronger than you are now. But you will not know everything when the water spilling over the bow. You'll still happy in the wings. You gotta get up to get down, kick. You gotta get down to get up again. You gotta get up to get down, kick. You gotta get down to get up again. Someday I will be weaker than I am now. And I still won't know everything. When I'm passing up and over the clouds, I hope that you all have learned from me. Someday you will be stronger than you are now, but you will not know everything. But when the water's spilling over the bow, you'll still have me in the wings. You gotta get down to get up again. You gotta get up to get down again. You gotta get down to get up again.